Bonanza Man wrote:

58Skylane wrote:Off topic a little bit......Have you been to the campus in Daytona? Very impressive! What I was most impressed with (besides having their own Starbucks and Chic fil A), was their library! I've never seen so many aviation related books and material any where! The library is 2-3 story's tall. Open to the public, too.

Most of the info I got on Riddle was from the nice young lady that owns the pilot supply store across the road (International Spdwy) next to the Outback Steakhouse.

Yes, we went there when we dropped him off in Aug 08. A tropical storm passed right thru Daytona which canceled orientation. I never thought much of ERAU until my kid expressed an interest in there and the Naval Academy. It was the rep from the Naval Academy who told us ERAU's engineering program was the equal to the Navy. Like most people I thought ERAU was just a pilot mill.

What a coincidence! My oldest boy graduated from ERAU in 2009 and my youngest is a Junior there also studying engineering. When my oldest sat down with me to discuss going we came to that point in the conversation where he says to me "Can we afford it?" I said "Well it is either I get a Ford GT or you go to Embry. Hmmm. Let me think about it."

I ended up buying a house in Daytona cause it was cheaper than paying for both of them to live on campus.

Raise the pay!!

Nobody ever had trouble enticing the brightest, college educated/experienced military and general aviation pilots into the majors ....when one could quickly rise to $100,000.00 per year as a copilot, eventually earn the equivalent of $350,000.00 per year as a senior captain and retire at age 60 with a $3,000,000,000 cash lump sum!

Those days are gone now but...$80,000.00 still comes quickly and senior captains reach and exceed $200,000.00. Still damned good pay for 14 days per month and lots of bennies.

There are tons of pilots out there that would go to the regionals if the pay was as it should be. Well qualified, experienced pilots. Raise the pay and watch gifted youngsters and experienced pilots follow the money!

As for available experience...it doesn't have to be 1,500 hours in a 172. Good lord...I went to the airlines over 38 years ago. I was 24 years old when hired and had over 3,400 hrs of flight time, all of it civilian flight: nearly 900 hrs. of turbine including over 200 hours in the right seat of a Hawker biz jet. My classmates all had similiar civilian and/or military experience. Believe me there were few corporate jets back then for general aviation guys. Today they are a dime a dozen. Getting a job in a corporate jet today is like flying a twin Cessna or Twin Beech in my era. I did both....plus got the jet time. So can today's aspiring aviators.

Once upon a time the majors hired America's best and brightest. Airline pilots of my generation and previous ones had the highest average I.Q. of any profession. Traditionally only a tiny percentage of youngesters who wanted to be military pilots ever achieved that goal. Then only 2 of every 10 military pilots who applied to become airline pilots were selected. General aviation pilots who were selected by the airlines had to meet that competiton head on. No 500 hour RJ copilot can possibly compare at such a juncture in their career. Yes the best and brightest once were selected by the industry. The job was so good why would one have wanted to be a Doctor, Lawyer or Indian Chief? Today...expecially at the regionals and to a degree at the majors.... the experience and quality of airmen continues to fall far short of historical standards. Why? Because the pay and security has gone to hell. The bright youngsters of today generally chose other careers.. I only recommend commercial flying to those who have an absolute passion for aviation: for whom money and security are less important.

In the day....all new hire copilots and flight engineeers flew with highly experienced captains who had thousands of hours and 10, 20 or 30 years in the industry. A new hire could expect to wait an average of 10 years to rise to the captain seat..... giving even the highly experienced new copilots years to learn from seasoned pros. During the recent growth in the regional airline industry it was not uncommon to hire a kid with a few hundred hours who would find themselves in the left seat within 2 or 3 years: still having less experience than the new hires in my class back in 1972. As a result it wasn't uncommon to have inexperienced newhires flying with novice captains, who themselves had been guided by novice captains. The blind leading the blind. Such was the case with the Cogan Air disaster. I am not suggesting that there aren't bright and excellent airmen within the regional industry today. Many of them are exceptional. But the the trends and averages are without honest dispute.

Raising the minimum hours required will at least reduce the pool of applicants and drive up the pay somewhat. It is a start in the right direction. And ....oh by the way...pilot salaries, even at the major airlines ....are a tiny fraction of the cost of the typical airline passenger ticket. Something less than $3.00 per passenger flown.

You passengers who want to be transported by pilots forced live on food stamps should also have your heart bypass done by some doctor trained in the Congo. I hear that they work really cheap also.

Bob

Good summary by Bob there...

I hear a lot about flying/working conditions in the States from my North American colleagues and it's really interesting to hear the ones that have joined from a regional carrier.

Don't know if the 1500 rule will mean anything. Over the years I've flown with guys/gals that have come to the right seat with 200 hours and some with many thousands. The first airline I was with many were the 200 category but are now senior captains.
If an airline/operator has good SOPs low time pilots should be able to cope - OK they might be a little wet behind the ears but with a good guy in the left seat most of them pick up the tricks of the trade quickly. The experience of new captains has been touched on...but,there are many out there at the moment and we only hear about the ones that had a bad day...not the hundreds who just get on with it and whose experience level is increasing daily.

And Bob, that IS where we are going with our health care. Everyday MDs can't make a decent living. We turned a big corner that way recently when obamacare passed, but we were drifting seriously that way already with the 'Big Insurance' people running medical care. The best and brightest now go to (shudder) law school............
But their future looks bright (?) Look down the road a couple generations. Everybody suing everybody, but nobody has anything of value, it is all in the orient.....
Us few pilots left will be flying lawyers and government workers around for a pittance.....

Hopefully the USA changes course, 'cause that is where we are headed with today's elected officials.......

lc

Littlecub wrote:And Bob, that IS where we are going with our health care. Everyday MDs can't make a decent living. We turned a big corner that way recently when obamacare passed, but we were drifting seriously that way already with the 'Big Insurance' people running medical care. The best and brightest now go to (shudder) law school............
But their future looks bright (?) Look down the road a couple generations. Everybody suing everybody, but nobody has anything of value, it is all in the orient.....
Us few pilots left will be flying lawyers and government workers around for a pittance.....

Hopefully the USA changes course, 'cause that is where we are headed with today's elected officials.......

lc

In the old Soviet Union.....


....doctors were paid less than heavy industy factory workers. Why? Because, in an effort to industrialize, the Soviet Union valued the steel worker over physicians! They had universal health care and more doctors per capitia than we will ever have. Everyone had access to medical care. There was no difficulty getting students to enter medicine. Despite the low wages....at least they got to wear the white coat, work in clean surroundings, help their fellow man and rub shoulders with the young nurses.

Now....was the Soviet medicine up to western standards? No. Of course not. But the point is...when the government is willing to support the cost of education....thousands will flock to the medical profession for all the obvious advantages....despite the lower income. Doctor's in the U.S.A. have made huge salaries during the last 50/60 years largely because the AMA controls access to the profession and medical insurance became common place. We don't have enough doctors. That is why folks have to make an appointment weeks in advance only to wait an hour after their appointment time to see the doc. That is why he/she can charge high fees. Certainly it is understandable given the huge cost of medical education. But ...take control away from the AMA; reduce the cost, open more medical schools, double the number of doctors or provide a publically financed medical school ....and watch the medical fees drop as doctors would not have to shoulder a $400,000.00 education debt.

It is kind of like professional baseball. If the salary cap was $500,000.00 per year for example: rather than the millions typically recieved, do you think that the quality of baseball talent would suffer? Hell no! After all....what else is a baseball player going to do that would earn him a half million per year? Damned few of them have talents of significance beyond the ability to hit, catch, pitch and run. Then we all could afford to take our kids out to the ball park and beer wouldn't be $8.00 a bottle.

The same can be applied to doctors and baseball players as has been directed at U.S airline pilots. Major U.S. airlines can still attract excellent airmen at salaries equal to 2/3 of their historical levels. But regional pilot pay just won't cut it. And by the way....in a society where professions are still protected by labor and government.....an Air France 747 captain earns $400,000.00 per year. Like the good ole days in the U.S.

Enough already,

bob

UGH, typed up a whole speil then it said I was logged out with submitted it!

Yea, its flight info but now I feel guilty responding.

I wish i had flown with you when I had 500 hours...
It would have been quicker then typing this out.

Boiled down: Will extra GA hours improve safety?
It might, but 250 hour wonder pilots are just not the safety issue people are making it seem.
You have dud's and Ace's at every level of aviation and no way to get rid of the duds. Much better things could have been done with this legislation.

As a result it wasn't uncommon to have inexperienced newhires flying with novice captains, who themselves had been guided by novice captains

Sounds like a Captain problem. Should have worked some magic on the requirements to command a flight. They are the teachers, the leaders, the foundation of safety. Sometimes I think the seniority system is the Worst thing aviation created for itself.