Stolhunter wrote:Thanks guys

So, your avatar says you're "Canadian Texas". What country do you plan to operate this airplane in? If it's the U.S. forget it. The FAA has a very dim view of external loads, except very strict and isolated instances, which they don't call external loads.

The Alaska Region of FAA has even stopped issuing external load permits, in a state where external loads are an everyday affair, and with virtually no accident history associated.

So, if you like your pilot privileges, And you operate in the US, I'd have a visit to your local FAA FSDO. They can tell you all about external load ops in this country.

And if they say yes, let us know, we'll come visit

MTV

From a 25 year bike carrying pilot: get a folder, put it inside. Yeah you may run short of room, but putting it outside is so butt ugly and un aero it should be illegal, and probably is

mtv wrote:

Stolhunter wrote:Thanks guys

So, your avatar says you're "Canadian Texas". What country do you plan to operate this airplane in? If it's the U.S. forget it. The FAA has a very dim view of external loads, except very strict and isolated instances, which they don't call external loads.

The Alaska Region of FAA has even stopped issuing external load permits, in a state where external loads are an everyday affair, and with virtually no accident history associated.

So, if you like your pilot privileges, And you operate in the US, I'd have a visit to your local FAA FSDO. They can tell you all about external load ops in this country.

And if they say yes, let us know, we'll come visit

MTV

Hello Backcountry Pilots,

As usual MTV is correct. Flying with a non-authorized external load on your airplane would most likely result in a FAR 91.13 (careless & reckless) and 91.7 (airworthiness) violation. Probably about 90 to 180 days on the beach/suspension. That said, there is a way to legally carry external loads on a certificated airplane. As an example, airplanes that have external antennas mounted on the struts to perform game tracking have a dual/ "Restricted Airworthiness Certificate". Good luck with that. I was considering pursuing a "Restricted Airworthiness Certificate" to carry elk antlers on my wing struts just to get out of the Idaho backcountry.

The Experimental Aircraft guys just have to re-compute a new weight and balance. Anyway, good luck.

James
Clear Creek, Idaho

James
Is it legal to use a Maule as deer bait down your way? I used my Ossa trials bike that way once and it worked very well.

Do keep in mind that any FAA (or CARs in Canada) violation resulting in damage can impact your insurance settlement and coverage on the next renewal. Particularly if it is the result of the unapproved mod.

What about just taking the wheels off, zip tying the chain so it's taut, and carefully stowing the frame/wheels in the Baggage Compartment first?

Super-Maule wrote:
That said, there is a way to legally carry external loads on a certificated airplane. As an example, airplanes that have external antennas mounted on the struts to perform game tracking have a dual/ "Restricted Airworthiness Certificate". Good luck with that. I was considering pursuing a "Restricted Airworthiness Certificate" to carry elk antlers on my wing struts just to get out of the Idaho backcountry.

The Experimental Aircraft guys just have to re-compute a new weight and balance. Anyway, good luck.

James
Clear Creek, Idaho

Not contradicting what Mike and James said just providing a reference. While digging through the airworthiness file for my 180B, I found the following restricted use load carrying permit. It's not applicable anymore, but I posted the image for those who are interested. Note the dates- Circa 1976

https://www.backcountrypilot.org/images ... 37c0a3.jpg
https://www.backcountrypilot.org/images ... a527e2.jpg
https://www.backcountrypilot.org/images ... e92abb.jpg

MTNWEST wrote:

Super-Maule wrote:
That said, there is a way to legally carry external loads on a certificated airplane. As an example, airplanes that have external antennas mounted on the struts to perform game tracking have a dual/ "Restricted Airworthiness Certificate". Good luck with that. I was considering pursuing a "Restricted Airworthiness Certificate" to carry elk antlers on my wing struts just to get out of the Idaho backcountry.

The Experimental Aircraft guys just have to re-compute a new weight and balance. Anyway, good luck.

James
Clear Creek, Idaho

Not contradicting what Mike and James said just providing a reference. While digging through the airworthiness file for my 180B, I found the following restricted use load carrying permit. It's not applicable anymore, but I posted the image for those who are interested. Note the dates- Circa 1976

https://www.backcountrypilot.org/images ... 37c0a3.jpg
https://www.backcountrypilot.org/images ... a527e2.jpg
https://www.backcountrypilot.org/images ... e92abb.jpg

As I noted, some FAA districts USED to approve external load operations via a Restricted category a/w certificate. Alaska did so most recently. They no longer issue those restricted certificates, though current ones are apparently still valid at least till the plane changes owners.

But, even with one of these (if you could get one) you still have to convince your insurance company to cover your plane while in the Restricted category. In Alaska, I operated under a restricted certificate, hauling external loads, and my insurance company would only cover me for liability and the first company I asked wouldn't even do that.

MTV

mtv wrote:
As I noted, some FAA districts USED to approve external load operations via a Restricted category a/w certificate. Alaska did so most recently. They no longer issue those restricted certificates, though current ones are apparently still valid at least till the plane changes owners.

But, even with one of these (if you could get one) you still have to convince your insurance company to cover your plane while in the Restricted category. In Alaska, I operated under a restricted certificate, hauling external loads, and my insurance company would only cover me for liability and the first company I asked wouldn't even do that.

MTV

While you were correct about the Alaska FSDO not issuing new external load permits, this is no longer true. They reviewed the policy, and reissued it with no changes. See link below.

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/medi ... 00.272.pdf

Outstanding!!!! Thanks for the update. I was stunned when I heard that they'd stopped issuing the external load permits. Some years ago, I did a pretty thorough search of the accident/incident data, and the only entry I could find that involved an external load was a C 206 on wheels which had lumber strapped to the belly, right up against the exhaust......lumber caught fire .

I'm sure there have been a few "oops" involving external loads, and I have no doubt there've been some soiled undies associated with external loads (I personally have a couple of those), but in fact, with a little common sense, external loads are not that big a deal.

As I noted earlier, though, it's difficult to judge how a particular load will fly by just looking at it, even with a fair amount of practice. And, I speak from experience there as well.

Anyway, glad to see the AK Region grew a set, and opted to keep the program. It is eminently intelligent move on their part.

MTV

Super-Maule wrote:The Experimental Aircraft guys just have to re-compute a new weight and balance.

I didn't figure it mattered whether certified of EAB, external load is external load. Is this not the case? If EAB aircraft really are allowed external loads I might have to put some hard points on the wings just in case

whee wrote:

Super-Maule wrote:The Experimental Aircraft guys just have to re-compute a new weight and balance.

I didn't figure it mattered whether certified of EAB, external load is external load. Is this not the case? If EAB aircraft really are allowed external loads I might have to put some hard points on the wings just in case

For bikes or rockets?

Cary

They allow such things in another modern country... Even flying with paying passengers.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11393286

http://www.adventureflightsgoldenbay.co.nz/Heaphy_Flights_MTB.html

FAA probably doesn't care how they do it elsewhere. Pretty cool setup.

And, the deHavilland Beaver was type certificated for certain specified external loads, including lumber, canoes, boats and kayaks.

So, if you see a Beaver flying external loads in MN, don't assume you can legally do so with your Cessna.

MTV

My load of rebar came off the Beaver float one day in SE Alaska....
The boss was not happy with my tie down job...
I always wondered how deep in the ground they went..... javeline style.
The story sort of went untold for a long long time.

flightlogic wrote:My load of rebar came off the Beaver float one day in SE Alaska....
The boss was not happy with my tie down job...
I always wondered how deep in the ground they went..... javeline style.
The story sort of went untold for a long long time.

I never lost an external load, but there were two that I wished I could.......

MTV

flightlogic wrote:My load of rebar came off the Beaver float one day in SE Alaska....
The boss was not happy with my tie down job...
I always wondered how deep in the ground they went..... javeline style.
The story sort of went untold for a long long time.

There's a hunter somewhere going WTF when he stumbles on a pile of steel in the middle of BFE.

Years of being a builder and constantly securing loads to pickup racks, gave me lot's of experience, only lost one or two I like to think it transfers over to aircraft external loads, so far so good anyway I like the rebar story....

There is a couple year old thread on SC.org talking about external loads. In it there is a email response from a FSDO guy and he said there is nothing in part 91 restricting external loads and part 43 doesn't apply to EABs. I still want to look into this some more but if this really is the case I'll be installing hard points in the wings of my Bearhawk so I can haul bikes like that guy in NZ and hopefully I will be able to haul kayaks out there too. The kayaks might be a bit much.

I don't have the picture but in in Peter Bowers book "The Piper Cubs" there is a picture of a C-85 powered J-3 with a bike on each strut. The install was all approved through the field approval process in the 70's. It is just an approved mod to the Cub. A friend of mine owns that Cub now and his dad purchased it from the guy who did the work in the late 70's. The mod was done by Bud Blancher (of BAS seatbelt fame). Bud was tired of walking around at fly-ins so he custom built two small bikes and figured out the mount on the struts and got it approved. It's my understanding that the approval doesn't have any op spec or restrictions to it, just bolt on/off as necessary, figure wt/bal and go.
The bummer about the whole deal is that when my friend's dad bought the ship, Bud wouldn't sell him the bikes.
My friend, who is also an A&P/IA, gets a chuckle when he sees the paperwork. It was a different FAA back then.

Cheers,
Dave