G'day.

I'm close to purchasing a damaged Cessna 170B from the US and shipping it to Australia for a complete restoration/modernisation for use as a STOL bush plane and $100 hamburger machine with the missus and dad.

My thoughts were as the engine and prop are rooted during a ground loop, I'd buy a 200hp Lycoming IO-360 and three blade, variable pitch MT Propeller; throw some big wheels on it, buy a few Dynon Skyview's as an affordable glass cockpit and off you go.

The aircraft needs a new landing gear box, probably new legs, new tail and rudder (as it flipped), the wings are apparently fine but buckled on the top skin- as the 170b has dihedral, that's a bit concerning as the Spar might be rooted (thoughts?), the engine and prop are bugged and honestly aren't worth my time (two o-300's for sale haha). Apart from that the aircraft looks in great shape and would be a fairly straight forward project.

I'm an GA AME Apprentice, so I have a bit of experience with this sort of stuff and my dad's retired, and has built a few experimental class aircraft and we'd both work on it in our spare time.

I think I've read every page of every 170 topic on BCP, so I have a fair idea of what the go is. I'm on here to seek advice from a more experienced audience, I'd like to hear your thoughts, any STC recommendations or links (FAA and EASA STC's are transferable to CASA) any recommendations on shipping companies (the guy I was going to use killed himself in a plane crash not long ago) and just a general chat about it.

Cheers!

Not much I can help you with, but the experts are here. Standby.

(My advice would be to buy an airworthy example and disassemble for shipping. Money can be an obstacle. Finance it, and charge others to restore theirs to make the payments. Otherwise it’s years before the time and money intersect and you’re able to fly your project)

I'd be very curious to know what yoy are paying for that "project". Pinecone is far off. You are basically buying a fuselage, half the tail feathers, and an interior. If the wings are buckled the spars are probably bent. You may be lucky on the and only need to replace the skins and some ribs, but unless you have a jig that is quite the undertaking. I just finished up repairing the outer 2 feet of wing for a '60 172 and even that was a big job. Serviceavpe wings are hard to find and $$because of that.
I tend to agree with Pinecone, better to charge for your work. That said, I'm on my second rebuild project. But both have had the complete airframe in tact and serviceable except for the above stated wing repair, and I got them cheap enough that I can put some time into them and make my money back when I sell them. Although I will probably never sell my 206, I make money using it to work on other peoples airplanes so it works out.
You've got a very big project ahead of you, make sure you show us pictures of the progress along the way.

I have a nice straight vertical stab if you need it.

I say go for it, but I make a lot of bad decisions, so my advice may be questionable.

Sometimes you can get something for free and you still will have paid too much for it.

Buy the nicest example you can find and you'll come out miles ahead, financially.

OTOH if the finances aren't a concern and part of the enjoyment for you is to have something to work on and restore, then you'll be doing the community a big service by brining this crashed bird back to life.

In order, here are my favorite 170B mods if I had money to burn on a new backcountry project:

Door stewards
Micro VGs
Sportsman STOL
T3 tailwheel spring
Double puck brake calipers
ABI tires
Continental IO-360 and constant speed prop of your choice with a bullet spinner
180 gear (get titanium if you really hate money and wanna save weight!)
Rosen visors
Precise flow air vent kit
Airglas extended baggage
Baggage door mod
Right wing landing light
6 point EGT/CHT (many to choose from, CGR30P is pretty nice)
Fuel totalizer (JPI, EI, etc...)
Atlee Dodge jump seats
Sport Aircraft Seats lightweight upholstery

You should be well north of $100k USD with all of the above and have a blast turning that Plain Jane B model into a backcountry beast.

If you need any help spending your money, we are here to help [emoji16]

I think this sounds like a blast of a project

Aryana wrote:Sometimes you can get something for free and you still will have paid too much for it.

Buy the nicest example you can find and you'll come out miles ahead, financially.

OTOH if the finances aren't a concern and part of the enjoyment for you is to have something to work on and restore, then you'll be doing the community a big service by brining this crashed bird back to life.

In order, here are my favorite 170B mods if I had money to burn on a new backcountry project:

Door stewards
Micro VGs
Sportsman STOL
T3 tailwheel spring
Double puck brake calipers
ABI tires
Continental IO-360 and constant speed prop of your choice with a bullet spinner
180 gear (get titanium if you really hate money and wanna save weight!)
Rosen visors
Precise flow air vent kit
Airglas extended baggage
Baggage door mod
Right wing landing light
6 point EGT/CHT (many to choose from, CGR30P is pretty nice)
Fuel totalizer (JPI, EI, etc...)
Atlee Dodge jump seats
Sport Aircraft Seats lightweight upholstery

You should be well north of $100k USD with all of the above and have a blast turning that Plain Jane B model into a backcountry beast.

If you need any help spending your money, we are here to help [emoji16]

I'm LIKING this list, just wish it was within my snack bracket.

Aryana wrote:Sometimes you can get something for free and you still will have paid too much for it.

Buy the nicest example you can find and you'll come out miles ahead, financially.

OTOH if the finances aren't a concern and part of the enjoyment for you is to have something to work on and restore, then you'll be doing the community a big service by brining this crashed bird back to life.

In order, here are my favorite 170B mods if I had money to burn on a new backcountry project:

Door stewards
Micro VGs
Sportsman STOL
T3 tailwheel spring
Double puck brake calipers
ABI tires
Continental IO-360 and constant speed prop of your choice with a bullet spinner
180 gear (get titanium if you really hate money and wanna save weight!)
Rosen visors
Precise flow air vent kit
Airglas extended baggage
Baggage door mod
Right wing landing light
6 point EGT/CHT (many to choose from, CGR30P is pretty nice)
Fuel totalizer (JPI, EI, etc...)
Atlee Dodge jump seats
Sport Aircraft Seats lightweight upholstery

You should be well north of $100k USD with all of the above and have a blast turning that Plain Jane B model into a backcountry beast.

If you need any help spending your money, we are here to help [emoji16]

Great list. Is the T3 certified for the 170 now?

A1Skinner wrote:

Aryana wrote:Sometimes you can get something for free and you still will have paid too much for it.

Buy the nicest example you can find and you'll come out miles ahead, financially.

OTOH if the finances aren't a concern and part of the enjoyment for you is to have something to work on and restore, then you'll be doing the community a big service by brining this crashed bird back to life.

In order, here are my favorite 170B mods if I had money to burn on a new backcountry project:

Door stewards
Micro VGs
Sportsman STOL
T3 tailwheel spring
Double puck brake calipers
ABI tires
Continental IO-360 and constant speed prop of your choice with a bullet spinner
180 gear (get titanium if you really hate money and wanna save weight!)
Rosen visors
Precise flow air vent kit
Airglas extended baggage
Baggage door mod
Right wing landing light
6 point EGT/CHT (many to choose from, CGR30P is pretty nice)
Fuel totalizer (JPI, EI, etc...)
Atlee Dodge jump seats
Sport Aircraft Seats lightweight upholstery

You should be well north of $100k USD with all of the above and have a blast turning that Plain Jane B model into a backcountry beast.

If you need any help spending your money, we are here to help [emoji16]

Great list. Is the T3 certified for the 170 now?

Not yet but I can't wait until it is!

A mate took me flying in his Cessna 170. Moree, NSW to Byron Bay and back. Great aircraft.

First, I'd find out what it's going to cost to SHIP that airplane. You may find that the cost of finding other parts may indeed exceed the cost of buying a decent and intact airplane you could disassemble and ship in same size container.

Even if free, that "project" airplane may not be a good deal at all, especially since most parts are also going to be shipped, only not all in one container.

Find a basic plane with run out engine, and ship that. Then, start on that project. I think you'll be money ahead.

MTV

I've been involved with several of these Cessna projects at this point, currently one for myself, and consulting on a second (both 170Bs.)

As have been advised above, my strongest thought would be to find another bird.

In my experience, the only reason anyone ever gets involved with projects like the one you presented is because somehow one develops the notion that it is a way to get into a Cessna cheap...

The unvarnished reality is that what you are proposing will in the end, cost you multiples more than any flying airframe you find.

Over the past 2 years, I have been fortunate to have traveled the four corners helping folks find the right Cessna TDs, and perhaps twice a week I have the same 60 min phone call where hungry Cessna buyers discuss what they want, their mission, their goals, etc etc etc... Invariably at some point in the call they say something akin to, "they all have damage, it doesn't matter, and if its fixed correctly, it doesn't bother me..." After surveying dozens of Cessnas now, I can assure you that it matters...

The point is, and all things considered, if you have a choice, it's better to start with the least amount of damage possible. (unless your plan is to not disclose the repairs... I have seen more examples of this than I care to recount.)

A "restoration" like you are talking about, if you do it the "correct" way, will not cost you 100k, but well north of $200k in parts, (I would guess the list you discussed it maybe more like $250,) and that's excluding the airframe. Folks can convince themselves otherwise, but eventually they either abandon the project, cut corners so they can finish, or swallow an uncomfortable dose of reality on their way to an emptied bank account.

Even if someone were to give me an insurance bird like you are talking about for free, I would most likely still choose to bide my time and find myself a low-ish time bone stock flying airframe (they are out there.) In the end, come out ahead.

One last item for thought... The reality is that all the "mods" and "restoration" you are talking about doing are the exact same parts and steps that you would do on a 170B or 180. What I mean is aside from the initial acquisition of the airframe, the resto-mod on both cost pretty much the exact same.

Of course there are factors that might change my rubric such as the cold economics of the wallet or an unbridled, subjective love for the 170, but in most cases, the argument for the Skywagon typically wins out... Here is one way to look at it: You drop $250k in parts to build a Cessna bush-bird, and you start with a $100k bone stock C180 vs a $40k bone stock 170B. In the end, the delta is $60k... That's a bunch of dough on its own for sure, but if you look at it from the backside, with the 170B, you are almost $310k into a bird that (today) might only be worth $125k on the best of days. In the case of the 180, you spend $350k, which when finished, could easily be worth $225-$250k... AND, it will fly faster, carry more, go further, and be in general a more betterer platform. And... this is just parts. NO LABOR. FWIW, I have over 6500 man hours in the restoration of my 180, and it's still not finished. LOL.

Big numbers for sure, undoubtedly higher than some of the older, legacy minded enthusiasts are willing to swallow, synthesize, or perhaps appreciate... but from someone who has been doing this every day now, it's hard to get out from under the reality.

All that said, we, as aviation nuts have the right to forgo common sense, throw our balls over our shoulders and charge into the fire... and, unrelated to reality, can sometimes turn the foolish choice into the correct choice. Cessnas have both enriched and changed my life, and I dont regret a single minute of the roller coaster ride... So good luck with whatever you choose!

In the end, Lopes advice is probably the most sound where he says: "I say go for it..."

Feel free to reach out privately if you want to to toss around some ideas. This topic has occupied most of my waking moments over the last decade, and am always glad to share my thoughts... (as you can read, I don't have any strong opinions. LOL)

Best,

Greg-

If I were doing a 170, I would go with an O-360, no rear seats, no baggage door, minimal if any interior panels, basic vfr panel, airglass extended baggage, early 180 gear legs, 29" bush wheels, and spend the rest on fuel.

That was more or less the plan haha

.

A1Skinner wrote:I'd be very curious to know what yoy are paying for that "project". Pinecone is far off. You are basically buying a fuselage, half the tail feathers, and an interior. If the wings are buckled the spars are probably bent. You may be lucky on the and only need to replace the skins and some ribs, but unless you have a jig that is quite the undertaking. I just finished up repairing the outer 2 feet of wing for a '60 172 and even that was a big job. Serviceavpe wings are hard to find and $$because of that.
I tend to agree with Pinecone, better to charge for your work. That said, I'm on my second rebuild project. But both have had the complete airframe in tact and serviceable except for the above stated wing repair, and I got them cheap enough that I can put some time into them and make my money back when I sell them. Although I will probably never sell my 206, I make money using it to work on other peoples airplanes so it works out.
You've got a very big project ahead of you, make sure you show us pictures of the progress along the way.

$10k with extras. Comes with new tail, new Rudder, new cowl, two rooted Cont O-300's- one in need of a bulk strip and another with a cracked crank shaft. The engines are worthless to me in Aus, no market for them.

mtv wrote:First, I'd find out what it's going to cost to SHIP that airplane. You may find that the cost of finding other parts may indeed exceed the cost of buying a decent and intact airplane you could disassemble and ship in same size container.

Even if free, that "project" airplane may not be a good deal at all, especially since most parts are also going to be shipped, only not all in one container.

Find a basic plane with run out engine, and ship that. Then, start on that project. I think you'll be money ahead.

MTV

The guy that unfortunately passed away charged roughly $10k to pack, truck (from mid to west coast USA) and ship from LA to Brisbane for my dad's Lancair. Unfortunately, he's passed away and I'm struggling to find another company that'll do it.
If I find a company that'll do it for a decent price, the plan was to do two shipments, one for the Aircraft and spare parts, and another with all the extras like the Engine, Prop, avionics, stol kit, big tires, new legs ect. in a few years time when the Airframe is repaired, corrosion free and painted.

Thanks very much for your reply Greg, it's definitely something to think about. (BCP wont let me reply to your comment for some reason, keep saying I'm blocked)
I had a chat at work with the Boss and a few AME's/LAME's. No one thinks it's a bad idea... But I was told by the Boss and an older LAME that I'll have to be cautious with my spending or it'll end up costing me $100k+ before I'm even finished- like you said.

The problem is in Australia we have the Cessna Supplemental Inspection Documents (or SID's for short) programme. Pretty much you pay a LAME $20k to take the wings, tail and legs off and glance over for corrosion. It's a joke in most cases...
Problem is now it's put the Cessna price tag through the roof. A few years ago you could buy a decent 60's-70's 172 for $30k, now they're easily over double the price for an average one. As a good example, there's a fucked, corrosion riddled seaplane C180A for sale for $80k... So unfortunately there's no affordable project aircraft here anymore

I have sized up buying a flying one, flying it till I need a new engine and doing the upgrade then, but due to SID's and the fact that the upgrades will still cost the same regardless of the aircraft price I didn't really think it was feasible short or long term.

Side note: Some Joker wanted $35k US for this "flying" heap of shit that's been sitting outside in the NY weather for 10+ years...


IF the wings are fine, then really all it needs is a new wing top skin, a few new ribs maybe, new landing gear box, new tail and rudder (which comes with it), new cables (which is somewhat mandatory under SID's), new wiring (again somewhat mandatory) and obviously the expensive stuff like new cockpit, engine and prop.

All of this is on condition of course. I'll be getting a local LAME to assess it before purchase, if the wing spars are rooted, if he finds an excessive amount of corrosion, any undisclosed damage, if shipping is beyond my budget or if I'm strongly advised against it by more experienced people like yourself, then I'll pull out. The owner knows this.

Stew0014 wrote:Thanks very much for your reply Greg, it's definitely something to think about.

I guess it's not that bad of an idea, as long as you really do understand what your getting into. The notion that even $100k is a number to be careful not to go over is the danger. I'm right in the middle of two 170B projects completely apart, neither of which really have any bad damage and I wish the parts budget was only $100k... you'll be over $200 in a blink of an eye, especially when you consider the 30% delta in the exchange rate between dollars. And thats not to mention the GST on the parts, which I think is 10%?

Just between the engine, STC, and 3 blade MT you will be easily over $100k.

To be safe, and excluding your labor, I wouldn't be surprised if you were pushing over $300k by the time you had the wiz-bang avionics in and were flying.

Believe me... I'm not trying to rain on the parade, just been there and done that.

The best bet is to keep the ear to the ground, find that $35-$40k bone stock flying 170B, pull the wings, slide it into a 40, and get her up and flying down under. Fly it for a bit while you gather the parts and slowly add the stuff you can limiting the down time to 2 week periods. 180 gear in a weekend... Sportsman another week... extended baggage some other weekend, etc etc etc... You can even strip the bird bit by bid and keep her flying.

When you got it all together, and have your ducks in a row, pull her all apart and take the time to do it right.

Feel free to give me a call if you want to jib jab. Im always glad to help.

Bigrenna wrote:

Stew0014 wrote:Thanks very much for your reply Greg, it's definitely something to think about.

I guess it's not that bad of an idea, as long as you really do understand what your getting into. The notion that even $100k is a number to be careful not to go over is the danger. I'm right in the middle of two 170B projects completely apart, neither of which really have any bad damage and I wish the parts budget was only $100k... you'll be over $200 in a blink of an eye, especially when you consider the 30% delta in the exchange rate between dollars. And thats not to mention the GST on the parts, which I think is 10%?

Just between the engine, STC, and 3 blade MT you will be easily over $100k.

To be safe, and excluding your labor, I wouldn't be surprised if you were pushing over $300k by the time you had the wiz-bang avionics in and were flying.

Believe me... I'm not trying to rain on the parade, just been there and done that.

The best bet is to keep the ear to the ground, find that $35-$40k bone stock flying 170B, pull the wings, slide it into a 40, and get her up and flying down under. Fly it for a bit while you gather the parts and slowly add the stuff you can limiting the down time to 2 week periods. 180 gear in a weekend... Sportsman another week... extended baggage some other weekend, etc etc etc... You can even strip the bird bit by bid and keep her flying.

When you got it all together, and have your ducks in a row, pull her all apart and take the time to do it right.

Feel free to give me a call if you want to jib jab. Im always glad to help.

I haven't been able to find any info on how much the STC cost other than "a couple of grand".. But my budget was aiming for second hand Engine and Prop. OH/rebuilt engine I should fetch around $30k and prop around $15k. Avionics I can get certified VFR Dynon setup for under $10K new, cheaper if second hand or salvage. The math I did, and accounting for hiccups and extras along the way put me around $100k total. (I rounded up and added an extra 10% for good measure). Nothing will be spent on hangarage, labour, tools, jigs ect. We already have those.