iceman wrote:just for info here's another story... neighbor hangar friend of mine flew to Borego air strip in east san diego county a few months ago.. landed and took off... flew around the desert enjoying the scenery... flew to and landed at Jacumba air strip.. a county maintained airport which parallels the border fence by less than 200 feet distant... taxiing back he was approached by a BP vehicle with lights on.. he stopped and shut down ... the officer asked him what he was doing... he stated just flying around and site seeing... officer asked where he had been and he advised him of the stop at Borrego... officer stated ..." yes they have been watching you"... who...."never mind" .... "did you call it in?" call what in.... "your flight" yeah i called my wife and told her I was going flying...."why didn't you call it in" .... I'm not required to call anyone .... he never asked for ID pilots license or any papers... but he was in radio contact with someone who advised him to let my buddy go... this just illustrates how little they know about aviation and how events can go against you .... when I was a cop with SDPD this type of crap happened with officers who were not familiar with a particular law and usually erred on the side of taking the person into custody and figuring it out later.... obviously my friend was being watched on radar and was confronted even though he was flying legally and landed at published airports...

Ice,

Good stories; they really drive home the fact that we can be guilty until proven innocent, Thanks for sharing.

BR

.
These are all very sobering stories.

I wonder if AOPA, EAA, or RAF (Recreational Aviation Foundation) has a small legal rights package, perhaps with specific state by state data, to help folks out who find themselves in such dilemmas. You could keep that along with charts, kneeboards, etc in your flight bag.

I'd actually like to see it incorporated into say the latest software version of FLYQ EFB, WIngX, etc. for easy reference on a notepad.

blackrock wrote:

iceman wrote:just for info here's another story... neighbor hangar friend of mine flew to Borego air strip in east san diego county a few months ago.. landed and took off... flew around the desert enjoying the scenery... flew to and landed at Jacumba air strip.. a county maintained airport which parallels the border fence by less than 200 feet distant... taxiing back he was approached by a BP vehicle with lights on.. he stopped and shut down ... the officer asked him what he was doing... he stated just flying around and site seeing... officer asked where he had been and he advised him of the stop at Borrego... officer stated ..." yes they have been watching you"... who...."never mind" .... "did you call it in?" call what in.... "your flight" yeah i called my wife and told her I was going flying...."why didn't you call it in" .... I'm not required to call anyone .... he never asked for ID pilots license or any papers... but he was in radio contact with someone who advised him to let my buddy go... this just illustrates how little they know about aviation and how events can go against you .... when I was a cop with SDPD this type of crap happened with officers who were not familiar with a particular law and usually erred on the side of taking the person into custody and figuring it out later.... obviously my friend was being watched on radar and was confronted even though he was flying legally and landed at published airports...

Ice,

Good stories; they really drive home the fact that we can be guilty until proven innocent, Thanks for sharing.

BR

Actually, if he was flying fairly low, he was probably being observed from a drone or helicopter, not radar.

Why would you expect the average Border Patrol Agent to know ANYthing about aviation? Do you really think there is a virtual beehive of flying that goes on in that area? I don't expect ANYone to know or understand anything about aviation, and I'm rarely shocked to find someone who does.

The point is, if this Agent just asked a few questions, and it was a calm and not aggressive encounter, who cares? I'd congratulate the BP Agent for making a contact on a potentially suspect aircraft, did a quick check and departed.....no harm no foul.

Now, if he dragged the pilot out of the cockpit, proned him out in the dirt with an AR to his head....that'd concern me, and would be worthy of spreading the word.

MTV

My only contact with BP, the green Broncos were spaced within observation of one another on the border between Fabens and El Paso, was cordial. When I ran out of fuel and botched a forced landing, one of them hauled me in to the airport.

mtv wrote:

blackrock wrote:

iceman wrote:just for info here's another story... neighbor hangar friend of mine flew to Borego air strip in east san diego county a few months ago.. landed and took off... flew around the desert enjoying the scenery... flew to and landed at Jacumba air strip.. a county maintained airport which parallels the border fence by less than 200 feet distant... taxiing back he was approached by a BP vehicle with lights on.. he stopped and shut down ... the officer asked him what he was doing... he stated just flying around and site seeing... officer asked where he had been and he advised him of the stop at Borrego... officer stated ..." yes they have been watching you"... who...."never mind" .... "did you call it in?" call what in.... "your flight" yeah i called my wife and told her I was going flying...."why didn't you call it in" .... I'm not required to call anyone .... he never asked for ID pilots license or any papers... but he was in radio contact with someone who advised him to let my buddy go... this just illustrates how little they know about aviation and how events can go against you .... when I was a cop with SDPD this type of crap happened with officers who were not familiar with a particular law and usually erred on the side of taking the person into custody and figuring it out later.... obviously my friend was being watched on radar and was confronted even though he was flying legally and landed at published airports...

Ice,

Good stories; they really drive home the fact that we can be guilty until proven innocent, Thanks for sharing.

BR

Actually, if he was flying fairly low, he was probably being observed from a drone or helicopter, not radar.

Why would you expect the average Border Patrol Agent to know ANYthing about aviation? Do you really think there is a virtual beehive of flying that goes on in that area? I don't expect ANYone to know or understand anything about aviation, and I'm rarely shocked to find someone who does.

The point is, if this Agent just asked a few questions, and it was a calm and not aggressive encounter, who cares? I'd congratulate the BP Agent for making a contact on a potentially suspect aircraft, did a quick check and departed.....no harm no foul.

Now, if he dragged the pilot out of the cockpit, proned him out in the dirt with an AR to his head....that'd concern me, and would be worthy of spreading the word.

MTV

I agree. Sounds like a perfectly legitimate encounter and a non-event. I don't see why law enforcement checking on pilots operating within a couple hundred feet of the Mexican border is an infringement of our civil liberties. I mean, we WANT border security, don't we? If talking to a LEO who doesn't happen to have an aviation background is too much to ask then I just don't know what to suggest.

Hi DR,

It is wise to seek what others have experienced up close to the border, but don't be too intimidated, or put too much stock in to 3rd hand stories. FWIW, my home strip at work is under 3 miles from the border with literally dozens of ops each day and NIGHT. We have multiple remote dirt strips (much to Contact's chagrin) that get used regularly, all within close proximity to the border, and NONE of these ops are conducted in radio or transponder equipped aircraft. In fact it is not uncommon to be turning OVER mexico on one end of a field while working. Our work home base, and my home are separated by mountains and by automobile, only 2 passes exist to get to and fro, either way will have you talking to DHS. It is an inconvenience, and I could go on a total off subject rant about the waste of money this represents, but the truth is, I've never had one of these contacts (thousands) lead to a bad experience.

Beyond that, my personal home strip is also in close proximity to the border, and although I do get occasional fly bys from both military and DHS aircraft, I've yet to be bothered. It takes them very little time to know your there, and what you're up to.

As said in previous posts, LEO's regardless of the flavor are as diverse as any other folks, but the one thing they have to deal with perhaps more than anyone else is sketchy dirtbags… don't act sketchy, and the Barney Fife in the bunch isn't going to presume you a dirt bag. IMHO being evasive is akin to acting sketchy. I have landed at a town strip that I keep a hangar at which is 4 miles from the border to have DHS land behind me to ask a few questions, and I have had them call the airport owner to ask about me several times. Since I tend to fly low&slow aircraft, I try not to get too worked up about this.. like Hammer said, we can't keep the border secure without a little scrutiny. The only times I've had conversations with DHS/BP guys go south is when I've been impatient and already uptight about something, and handed them a bunch of attitude. I've always knew I was in the wrong, and it has never amounted to anything but a longer contact than was necessary.

Enjoy the strip!

Take care, Rob

And, for perspective, when I was teaching at the University, near the Northern border, CBP aircraft landed at our airport fairly frequently, and on occasion, they'd ramp check a student/instructor or two. These events were always non-threatening and professionally accomplished.

I used these as a "teachable moment" with the students (and instructors) illustrating that a) ANY law enforcement officer has the authority to ramp check a pilot and aircraft, and b) If done professionally, these encounters need not be stressful or ugly. I knew some of the CBP pilots and was always happy to see them in the neighborhood. They frequently dropped in on local pancake breakfasts as well, but like good neighbors, they didn't do ramp checks there......

MTV

I take issue with it, unless I flew outside of the US, I take a very large issue with it.

Why, because I love my country, I love our constitution and I respect the men and women who gave some much, as well as the ones who gave their lives to defend it.

I do not give my rights away, they simply are worth far too much, unless you saw me breaking the law and/or hurting someone or property you can F' off.

It's bad enough that most Americans have grown to love a good government azz rape, and spit in the face of the men and women who defended the constitution, I don't need to add to that stupidity.

Being a patriot is not following anyone with a 2 cent title of 5 cent badge, it's following the constitution of the United States of America.

NineThreeKilo wrote:I take issue with it, unless I flew outside of the US, I take a very large issue with it.

Why, because I love my country, I love our constitution and I respect the men and women who gave some much, as well as the ones who gave their lives to defend it.

I do not give my rights away, they simply are worth far too much, unless you saw me breaking the law and/or hurting someone or property you can F' off.

It's bad enough that most Americans have grown to love a good government azz rape, and spit in the face of the men and women who defended the constitution, I don't need to add to that stupidity.

Being a patriot is not following anyone with a 2 cent title of 5 cent badge, it's following the constitution of the United States of America.

Just as a point: Neither you nor I have a "right" to fly an airplane. That is in fact a "privilege" not a constitutionally guaranteed right. Good luck with that kind of attitude in any kind of "discussion" with a law enforcement officer.

I "loaned" four years of my life to Uncle Sam, without regret. I figure I earned the right to go about life as the US Constitution proposes.

But, having a conversation with a law enforcement officer wherever or whenever doesn't bother me a bit.

FWIW.

MTV

mtv wrote:

NineThreeKilo wrote:I take issue with it, unless I flew outside of the US, I take a very large issue with it.

Why, because I love my country, I love our constitution and I respect the men and women who gave some much, as well as the ones who gave their lives to defend it.

I do not give my rights away, they simply are worth far too much, unless you saw me breaking the law and/or hurting someone or property you can F' off.

It's bad enough that most Americans have grown to love a good government azz rape, and spit in the face of the men and women who defended the constitution, I don't need to add to that stupidity.

Being a patriot is not following anyone with a 2 cent title of 5 cent badge, it's following the constitution of the United States of America.

Just as a point: Neither you nor I have a "right" to fly an airplane. That is in fact a "privilege" not a constitutionally guaranteed right. Good luck with that kind of attitude in any kind of "discussion" with a law enforcement officer.

I "loaned" four years of my life to Uncle Sam, without regret. I figure I earned the right to go about life as the US Constitution proposes.

But, having a conversation with a law enforcement officer wherever or whenever doesn't bother me a bit.

FWIW.

MTV

I'm happy to chat, but I'm not authorizing you to search my plane, person, I'm not telling you anything I wouldn't tell an armed stranger.

I know you're not coming up to me as Mr. Smith to wants to talk aviation, you coming up to me as officer Smth who is paid to find trouble.

As for rights, flying is and isn't a right, we are given the right to freedom of movement, so again unless you witness me doing something which victimized someone I don't feel I have a need to talk to you.

As a working pilot I know I have some requirements per the FARs and our beloved always overreaching FAA, I'll honor those but I won't go one step beyond that.

IMHO part of any encounter with law enforcement is an attitude check-- yours, not theirs.
If you start out the encounter with a chip on your shoulder, things tend to go downhill.
Been there, done that when I was younger-- I like to think that I'm older wiser and less antagonistic now.
(I also have a lot less to hide )
If you land somewhere that might be considered suspicious, like near the Mexican border on a deserted dirt strip or worse yet off-airport, it's only logical to expect someone to check you out. If you're not doing anything wrong, and you keep your cool, things will probably be OK. If you get chesty, they probably won't.

Back to the OP's original question...it's not a big deal flying on the border.

Every morning I wake up and sip hot coffee as the sunrise illuminates the mountains across the river in Mexico. As the caffeine kicks in, I light a fire behind the prop and embark on what is usually the best hour or two of my day. Flyin around checking on cows/water, and generally doing a lot of fucking off [emoji13].

Don't call nobody, don't radio nobody, no transponder, just turn the music on and try to keep these eyes unclouded.

What burns my ass is those frigging huge airports in big cities with invisible different colored rings around them that think I give a shit what they are saying. They talk all fast about squawking and asking me to verify if I have some information about India or Whiskey? Those dudes are trippin if they think I'm gonna fly to India or share my Whisky [emoji12]

Skalywag wrote:Those dudes are trippin if they think I'm gonna fly to India or share my Whisky [emoji12]

Ain't nobody got time to share no whiskey!

Wait until flying small aircraft is classified as a matter of high risk to national security.

The move in this direction has been apparent for years and it is a systematic agenda that is being followed. Agreeing to a warrant-less search is a recipe for disaster. Kindly skip over-complying and for gods sake stop trying to pretend that searches are just a matter of things we "have to accept" if we wish to have border security. Bullshit! The officer on the ground should never be used for venting frustration, they do a job someone asked them to do. Cooperate to the extent necessary by law. That's it.The issue should be addressed on a different level.

Border security is to be assured at the BORDER. The damn job is supposed be done properly, right where it matters so that there is no need to pester people (who do have a constitutional right to move about freely) while traveling within the country. Very simple stuff, folks. You should not be subjected to more scrutiny or have less freedom, just because you operate a piece of equipment that has been made into something foreign to people. You should not be a suspect by default.

"If you got nothing to hide there's nothing to be afraid of!"
This sentence has never and will never hold water. Please take the blindfolds off.
Eventually "staying out of trouble" will mean avoiding the hassle altogether by simply not going where you wanted to go.

Example: We have seaplanes doing touch and go's in lakes which are open to seaplanes. Like clockwork, LE and the press gets involved. Usually because someone reports a "crash". The following "investigation" usually yields lots of question signs and LEO's making press statements indicating that the legality of landing a seaplane at the XYZ location is being probed and may have violated some unknown regulation (or better yet) ordinances. The actions are often unwarranted, arbitrary and made up of hot air. These issues stem from a lack of knowledge and education.

Idiocy should not be the standard. Please don't make excuses for it. Please don't "accept" it silently.

JJ,
Well said! I have been on both sides of this and as I stated earlier, there are good and bad LEO's, just like the populous in general. Their spouse woke up being a bitch, well guess what, they are going to take it out on every person they come into contact that day. If they woke up next to the Barbie twins, well, they might be the nicest guy in the world that day. Of course this is an attempted jab at humor in givng an example of extreme's, but what that person (LE) has experienced before they came into contact with you has a LOT to do with their demeanor when confronting you. Just the way it is.

In my 50+ years on this planet, I have seen LEO's go from being the friendly 'Andy Griffith' type to the 'I'm Super Commando Tacticool Badass' types that presume they are the supreme power and have authority over all. Is this too broad an explanation? Probably, but they are becomming a product of their enviroment. Lots of thugs, drug crazied idiots and raging lunatics out there that cause many of them to be on guard with everyone they confront. Is it neccessary? No, but then how do you know if the guy you are questioning is a good guy or bad?

My first 'job' in the military was LE, thought I wanted to go that route when I was young and dumb. Found out quite quickly that it is nothing like the TV programs. You are bored 90% of the time, on a terroizing adrenalin rush the next minute, and then filing out paperwork the rest of the time. No love lost when I changed career paths. Still have family in Law Enforcement and have the utmost respect for the people that do the job, but, I can spot the a$$holes in uniform quite quickly!

jjbaker wrote:.... Agreeing to a warrant-less search is a recipe for disaster. Kindly skip over-complying .... Cooperate to the extent necessary by law. ....

I suggested not starting the encounter with a chip on your shoulder. I never suggested consenting to warrantless searches. It's possible to politely decline a search, if it should come to that.

In "the corridor" there is no requirement for CBP to have a warrant or probable cause. They can search you anytime they want. I don't like it, but that is how it currently is.

The OP asked about flying on the border, there are a lot less issues flying than there are driving or being a landowner in the corridor. This is a highly political topic and discussing details would need to be done in the Hot Air part of this forum. We're all here to talk about flying right?

Before you hotheads start disrespecting law enforcement you need to watch this documentary. Really makes you think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS5P_LAqiVg

Hammer wrote:Before you hotheads start disrespecting law enforcement you need to watch this documentary. Really makes you think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS5P_LAqiVg

Love that one, here goes another 30 minutes of unproductivity while I watch it again!

My motive for fielding the OP was as a new pilot, I figured I was unexposed to or unaware of a process that most off airport operations follow that allows them to remain on the right side of being observed by LE. Living in Texas and New Mexico you learn about the dynamics the international border provides and as a responsible citizen you should prepare for that influence on your activities. I also know that although I don't have anything to hide, there are going to be bad encounters. LE does a difficult and mostly thankless job and I salute most of them that accept that difficulty to keep the order that we as citizens take for granted, order that would not exist without them. But I also know that they are human, and there are those that are living for that "career bust" to tack on the wall and you may just be that event they are looking for. These are the types I want to prepare myself for so I make no unwitting mistakes in the encounter. Good info and experience in this thread and as law abiding citizens we'll deal with any potential encounters accordingly.