As many of you know Lockheed/Martin is in charge of the FSS Stations and has had its share of problems this last year. The AOPA has filed many complaints with the FAA.

This last week my wife and I flew to Utah from CA to do a little camping at some remote strips. We were excited to discover some new places in our 180.

I tend to only file flightplans over areas that are remote or rugged terrain, and am usually too low for radar following.

The trip started with the FSS telling me I was overdue on a flightplan that I had closed and confirmed 40 minutes before a fuel stop. They said they had started SAR and little did I know, called my family. After a short conversation they realized it was THEIR mistake, but never called back my family who was in a panic, or my home airport!

Later, after arriving over the top of Happy Canyon airstrip, I wanted to air-file a 24 hour open flightplan with Cedar City and was denied! For many years I have been flying floatplanes in the Sierra's, filing Roundrobin flightplans in excess of 24 hours because there is no way to close them in the canyons and that is the ONLY WAY a timely search will be started if something happens. I tried to explain this to the briefer but she told me it was not possible. I procceded to Canyonlands airport to get fuel and make a phone call to the supervisor.

If you have never been to Happy Canyon before, let me explain the awesome but, potentially dangerous place it can be if no one knows were you are,... like any remote strip. Its located about a 1000' down at the bottom of a high desert canyon. The strip is at 5000' MSL and 1300' long, with shear cliffs all the way around, beautiful. The closest small town is over 20 straight air-miles, no roads or obvious routes to walk out, which would be at least 2 days anyway.

So I called the FSS and argued with the supervisor for 20 minutes before he finally understood. A FLIGHTPLAN IS FOR MY BENEFIT!!! I will not have radio or cell communications. If I crashed on landing AFTER I cancelled no-one will know I am missing for DAYS! My family knows where I am but does not expect me back for 3 days. I wanted posted in the remarks column that I would be in a 3 mile radius of the strip, gave him the Lat/Lon and explained that I have a greater chance of being found on a flightplan open for 24 hours in one place than a x-c plan flying over 300 miles!!!! At the very least if I can't get my engine started, someone will come looking. If I crashed on takeoff I would have been over due in less than an hour. The sup. said they had never done it before but would go ahead and file it.

We had a great time, and the next morning blasted out of there within 10 minutes of our planed time. I came up on the radio and was told the FSS system was down and they could not find my flightplan!!!! WHAT???!?!!! You better check again!!!! The briefer finally advised me the sup. knew about it and they would close it,....not very comforting. This whole situation would not have been such big deal if there was another plane or an easy way out.

I don't know what any of you do in the remote areas, but the filing a Round- Robin with a specific Lat/Lon and keeping it open for as long as I am in a strip has worked well for me for years. I don't have a satphone or PLB. I had confidence in the system with experienced briefers. After this I am going to get a Satphone or PLB. I also reported it to the AOPA and the FSS. It PISSED me off that for no good reason a safety net for the PILOTS safety is not understood by the FSS! My wife wanted to ring their necks!!!!!

What also concerned me was the supervisor said they never had flightplans open for this type of "backcountry thing". Has anyone else had this experience before? The system works as long as the briefers are open-minded and understand what is going on. Too bad a good system with experienced people went out to a lowbid contract.

I just wanted to bring this to light for all of you who enjoy backcountry flying. The risks and rewards are great in this kind of flying, but ultimately you can only rely on yourself out there.

Be safe please!

Well, I'm a new pilot up here in Idaho. So I haven't done much backcountry flying yet (just with my friends). I would recommend purchasing the SPOT satellite messenger. It's inexspensive, it's small (almost fits in a pocket) and it work's very well. Doesn't work on impact though. The web site is findmespot.com. A satellite phone would be very handy too.

That is a sad story, sorry to hear about that sort of thing. I guess all they are concerned about now is the heavy iron IFR in the flight levels. We still have good service in AK, hope it continues...

gb

One of the reasons I spent the money on a PLB is because I don't like dealing with flight service. So long as I can still push two buttons, I'll have help a whole lot faster than I'll get it with an overdue flight plan.

I agree though, it's too bad that flight service isn't there for the little guys anymore.

I gave up on backcountry flight plans years ago, just too hard to deal with, too much chance of an unnecessary search, can't close or open one below 10,000 14,000 feet, etc. etc.

At least in Idaho, the cocoanut telegraph (122.9) works pretty good if you are not right down in the canyon. I also try to keep an up to date list of all high altitude Center freqs handy.

I must say I feel a whole lot better with a PLB now, though.


Rocky

Before you get too enamored with PLB's for back country flying, please be aware of their limitations.

The PLB has to be able to "see" a satellite. The tests done by Doug Ritter on the Equipped to Survive website show some of the limitations of the hand held PLB's in various conditions. This test is now over three years old and there probably have been improvements.

The description of the strip in the beginning of this thread might have very limited satellite visibility and as a have very poor or no access. It is probable the signal will get out but depending on the conditions it may be delayed and the gps component may not make the hook up.

The take home with these units is to get as clear and broad a view of the sky as possible when activating them.

A flight plan ( assuming Lockheed can figure out how to find them) should help to know where and when to start looking.

Just post your flight plan here before you take off. Now that we all know you don't buy your wine at Trader Joes, someone's bound to show up with a styrofoam cup.

Seriously, why not leave the itinerary for your round robin with the local fbo and/or a friend or relative (along with SAR contact info for the non-flyers)? I've got the PLB now, but still leave an itinerary with someone in case the PLB doesn't work.

Like you, I once had a mixup with FSS about whether I closed my flight plan. They didn't dispatch SAR, but were making phone calls when they caught up to me. That experience soured me on using FSS for flight plans. I don't want to be responsible for SAR risking life and limb over a false alarm. Also, I want to be sure that when the plan is closed, I'm the one who is closing it! I didn't give up on flight plans altogether. I just "file" with someone more reliable.

CAVU

I don't trust the "system" either. I leave a plan with my wife and make sure I contact her when I get to my destination.

The weakness in my system is that there are places that I can't get cell service, so this expands the area that would need to be searched if I didn't show up in a place that I knew I could phone home.

Another idea some folks have suggested is to simply give position reports to FSS as you pass various waypoints. This won't start the SAR folks, but supposedly they will have some idea where to look when you are finally listed as missing by one the other systems.

tom

Here in northern MN I frequently file "round robin" flight plans that can stay open a week or more. We are required to file a plan when crossing into Canada, and frequently there is no means to close them while in the bush. Last summer was a nightmare with FSS trying to explain to non-local briefers how this was done. Our normal FSS is Princeton, MN, and all the briefers there are very familiar with the process, and provide excellent service. After having several disappearing or never filed flight plans, I decided not to try to file these types of plans with any station other than my local one. So now, if the first briefer is not one from my local FSS, I ask them to "que Princeton". I may have to hold for a few minutes, but will always get one of my local Princeton briefers familiar with the particulars in this neck of the woods. You might want to try the same for your area, ask them to que whatever your local station is. You should get back to your same old friendly briefers you had before. Last summer when Princeton was closed for computer updates, one of the Princeton briefers who was temporarily in Dallas gave me and most of us seaplane pilots up here his personal cell phone # so we could always reach him to get these things filed right. These temporarily misplaced Princeton briefers would even search the FAA system for tail #'s/Pilot names they new-without being asked, and go in and correct these plans when another FSS briefer had them screwed up. I was very impressed with the great level of service "my" local briefers gave me during the temporary outage, and very disappointed in the "national" system. I will not file these round robin plans any more with anyone other than Princeton anymore since last summer they were getting ready to launch SAR because my plan was screwed up. Fortunately a Princeton briefer caught the error, called my wife, and all was OK.

So I am not the only one with this problem, interesting. I do give updates when crossing the Sierras, always a good idea considering even at 13k in many places I guess less than 4 minutes to hitting the ground in an engine failure.

I have never been a flight plan fanatic, but in certain situations such as the one this last week I felt it was the most accurate and appropriate.

As for advising family or friends, its not a problem and I do it regularly if I was close to home or visiting 1 strip. But I told them I would be 2 states away and was thinking about trying 4 different strips. After flying 250nm from my last fuel stop, the decision was going to be based on wx at the strip, beauty, and if I felt that is where my wife and I wanted to spend the night. So to fly to another airport, call and update them, takeoff and fly back to the strip, then upon leaving fly to an airport and call the family again is laborious at least. And creates an even bigger circle of search.

Being told I could not file a 24 hour plan is what really ticked me off. The flight plan system is for my benefit and safety. If I want to fly to 5 airports then 3 gravel bar landings, with lat/longs, then camp out for 2 days on a grass strip in the middle of nowhere, all on one plan, that is my perogative. What is the confusion? The pilot wants it then let him do it. A briefer telling me he CAN'T is full of sh$#. No procedure or FSS computer program prevents them from doing it.

I am always prepared to stay longer if needed. But have had several friends crash and die, a few in the Sierras alone, none on flightplans and SAR had no idea where to start the search. Twice the local pilots found the wrecks before the CAP and SAR because they knew the terrain better from a pilots point of view. Most cases there was a good chance the pilots would have survived, had they been rescued quickly,... not found 10 DAYS later! One freight dog friend of mine did survive crashing a 402 in the Sierras several years ago, while the other pilot was killed. By PURE LUCK in a snow storm, busted up, and stuck in the half ripped apart cockpit he used his handheld and there just happened to be a ANG C130 flying over and heard him. Several hours later a Chinook and Blackhawk rescued him in over 60 mph winds, nearly dead. I am sorry, these situations warrant a good system. I will take the risk and pay for it if something happens if needed, but at least let the flightplan system work.

Splashpilot, when our local FSS was shut down last summer and was forced into the national system, I found that most briefers had never heard of a round robin plan. Apparently round robins are only used commonly in more remote areas of our country. I would try to talk them through how to file it, but despite most of their best efforts, they just couldn't figure it out. I would say if you ever want to file a round robin again, say "que Princeton" when get to the first briefer, and I'll bet they'll be able to help you since they work with these all the time.

I suggest knowing the CENTER frequencies that are used in the area that you are flying into. If you need to talk to someone, it is possible to contact the heavy iron Jet Pilots. They will forward any emergency call to CENTER. You will then have to stop bad mouthing them. Remember. We are all in the same Brotherhood/Sisterhood.

Flyer

In January I flew a 172 from CT to UT. After reading about all of the problems with FSS, I was pleasantly surprised at how well it worked and the high level of service I received.

However, one common thread appeared. When the level of service was high, it was from briefers who identified themselves, one way or another, as being familiar with the local area. Comments like, "I used to work out of Jonesborro and lived there for XX number of years" is how I knew that they had local knowledge. In fact, the briefer from Jonesborro saved our bacon. He kept us from heading slightly further north towards Springfield, MO the night they were hit by several tornados. I wish I knew his name so I could buy him dinner.

Now contrast this with the flight I had last Fall to Ibex. The briefer had no idea where I was talking about and I had to use a radial/distance off of DTA as a reference. The key to all of this is that with all of the shuffling that has been done in the FSS system, and with the "over flow" system that will send you off to who knows where, we have lost some of the local knowledge that we are used to.

As for the backcountry flight plans I agree with Rocky. I file to my "airport of entry", usually Smiley Creek coming from the south and cancel there. I now have a PLB, leave my specific itinerary with family (along with plan B, C, D, etc.) and tell them when to expect to hear from me, and report my position on 122.9. By the way, this is another good reason to sign those books at the strip whenever you land there. A perfect system? No. But trying to deal with FSS back there just isn't practical either.

The one additional item I think would be great for the SPOT PLB would be an external antenna. That way the track function will work a lot better. I have tested the track function in my plane and it did not work so well because the unit needs to be able to see the satellite's. The other down side to the track function is that it tracks every 20 minutes. I think in a plane it needs to track more like 5-10 minutes (then again, the unit was originally designed for hikers and hunters). Maybe they plan to come out with one specifically for aviation in mind (then it would cost $500.00 instead of $150.00 ) Other than that, I think the unit works great. Of course I havn't (and hope not to) needed to use the 911 or help button yet.

I work for the government. If you really believe the gov or there contractors will save you, God help you! Remember the hurricane Katrina SNAFU/FUBAR.

I have a PLB. I print my FP on my FlightPrep soft ware and leave it at home with the family and tell them if I don't contact them in a certain time frame call SAR.

If I don't know where I am going exactly, sometimes I just say what the F and go. Not smart. This doesn't happen in the real back country.

If I am going to fly serious back country, I will do my best to have a wing man.

Enough of my amateur ramblings. Rob

I've had similar problems filing flight plans, gave up and now just try to let the dispatcher (where I rent the plane) / CFI's I know, the route I plan on and when to expect me. Not perfect.

Gotta say, I think we've been spared a lot of pain up till now in Alaska. Thanks Uncle Ted! Sounds like a nightmare down there.

Just a couple observations that haven't been made already, or not on this thread, at least:

In Canada, where filing a plan is mandatory, I have found it helpful to file a "presumed departure" from the last location that has good communications. This tells them to expect that you will depart a particular b/c strip at such-and-such a time and date. I've only used this in Canada- not actually sure if you can do it in the US or not.

There's a long thread elsewhere on this site about Iridium and Globalstar, and why the latter sucks, etc... Be aware that on Iridium, you are treated like an international call, so that 1-800-WX BRIEF is liable to connect you with ANY part of the country. I almost was the subject of a SAR once because, although I closed out, it was with a guy from Long Island, NY. He said he could close my Alaska-filed plan... After that I took to carrying the local-exchange FSS numbers along with the sat phone.

Other options are filing a Wife-Plan, or leaving word with your local air-taxi buddies. Chances are they know the b/c strips and alternates and sneak-routes better than anyone else anyway.