MTV,

Speaking of poseurs, I read a hard to believe statistic that four out of five supposedly Vietnam Veterans were never there. Not trying to break the train of thought here, just can't believe human nature sometimes.

Contact

Thanks Patrick, MTV and 8GCBC. That is all good advice. It will be a continuing learning experience and this thread has given me lots to think about.

GCBC...hearing you talk about Hawaii and all of the familiar names brings back some good memories. I was stationed at K-Bay from 05-08 and lived in Hawaii Kai. Had a boat in Hawaii Kai Marina (right in front of Kona Brewery).

Thx for all of the good advice. And if anyone ever makes it to Monterey, drop me a line. Beers on me.

JB

Contact...the number of "stolen valor" cases out there is staggering. There are tons of videos on YouTube showing real veterans confronting fakers. I am not gonna lie...it always gives me a good laugh to see one of them confronted and asked about their service and very quickly it is apparent that they have no idea what to do or say.

Thanks for the offer Rob. I might take you up on that. Will send you a pm with my contact info.

Since it was brought up, I have a lot of trouble understanding the "stolen valor" mindset. I know where I was in 68-73--safely in either Illinois or Alaska, nowhere near Viet Nam. Viet Nam era, yes; Viet Nam, no. Still in service to my country, and I'm proud to have served, but the last thing I'd compare it to is combat (other than fighting with other JAGs in the courtroom! )

Cary

Cary,

You, and many others, qualify, rightly so, for GI Bill benefits. I think this draws some into a quasi-lie that ends up being a major lie. Each of us has our history. Being shot at by good people serving their country draws us, combat vets, together in a unique way. Police officers get shot at by honestly bad guys. It is different somehow.


The Ballad of East and West


0h, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

Rudyard Kipling

Rudyard said it best. Jane Fonda just didn't get it.

Jim

Mojave Flyer,

I love surfing Pyramid Rock at K-Bay!!! Snapped a board in half during a large Northeast swell there Crossing the active runway is also interesting in the car to get over to the beach.

The Hawaii Kai boat ramp is the closest to Molokai and we would "put in" there sometimes to save gas when going to Lono Harbor.

Glad you enjoyed the place. Just got back from a bouncy sail (Kona Winds) this morning from Waikiki. All the airports are backwards today. Trades should show up again however.

Keep the desire to fly backcountry a live!

Hawaii Kai was awesome. We were big time divers there and would dive the Corsair (110' deep about a mile out of the harbor) and putter around to Waikiki and dive the wrecks over there. But it was always fun to make the trip to Molokai. Good diving on the north side and always entertaining to take folks visiting from the mainland over by the old leper colony.

Then at the end of the day, pull the boat back into the slip in Hawaii Kai and have beers at the Kona Brewery. Good times!

The missus took this one of one our friends who was a big time free diver. The plane sits at 110 feet. Pretty amazing stuff. Kinda small pic. Couldn't find the original.

Mojave Flyer wrote:Hawaii Kai was awesome. We were big time divers there and would dive the Corsair (110' deep about a mile out of the harbor) and putter around to Waikiki and dive the wrecks over there. But it was always fun to make the trip to Molokai. Good diving on the north side and always entertaining to take folks visiting from the mainland over by the old leper colony.

Then at the end of the day, pull the boat back into the slip in Hawaii Kai and have beers at the Kona Brewery. Good times!

The missus took this one of one our friends who was a big time free diver. The plane sits at 110 feet. Pretty amazing stuff. Kinda small pic. Couldn't find the original.

Mojave Flyer,

OMG !! That is unreal 110' free dive! I have trouble cleaning my keel in the marina without SCUBA!

Palos Verdes, CA right now, will be surfing the cold water this weekend

Mojave Flyer, I'll add my thoughts. A lot has been covered on landings and a few have covered cross country and weather. I think a lot of just getting to your location can be challenging. Learn about weather, effects of DA, wind currents, turbulence, lift, down drafts, rotors, wave, drizzle, rain, fog. Sooner or later you will experience some or all of these (hopefully not on the same flight). Go and fly in some of these conditions when you have lots of alternatives (ie other places to land and retreat to). Learn how to aerially assess your LZ thoroughly before landing. Learn how to do this effectively in confined spaces or over 'one way strips'. Always have a plan that can be reassessed as you gain more experience. And above all LISTEN to that little voice of doubt in the back of your mind, if it starts making you feel uncomfortable in your seat DO something about it and get out of that situation.

NZMaule wrote:Mojave Flyer, I'll add my thoughts. A lot has been covered on landings and a few have covered cross country and weather. I think a lot of just getting to your location can be challenging. Learn about weather, effects of DA, wind currents, turbulence, lift, down drafts, rotors, wave, drizzle, rain, fog. Sooner or later you will experience some or all of these (hopefully not on the same flight). Go and fly in some of these conditions when you have lots of alternatives (ie other places to land and retreat to). Learn how to aerially assess your LZ thoroughly before landing. Learn how to do this effectively in confined spaces or over 'one way strips'. Always have a plan that can be reassessed as you gain more experience. And above all LISTEN to that little voice of doubt in the back of your mind, if it starts making you feel uncomfortable in your seat DO something about it and get out of that situation.

NZMaule, that is a good point. I would say that weather is a factor across the board for all aviation, but backcountry flying in particular introduces a few weather factors that are unique. Most of the good places are in the mountains, and with all that terrain comes uplifting, rotors over ridgetops, katabatic and anabatic winds, fog, etc. There's definitely more to the mountain flying stuff in active wx than there is in clear/calm conditions.

The weather piece is always challenging to all types of flying, but I see your points on its particular applicability to backcountry, mountain and off airport flying. All of my flying until now has been in and around SoCal, so my weather consisted of a bit of marine layer and some high winds. I only did a bit of tough weather flying during my Instrument Rating flights. Now that I am in NorCal, I need to improve my weather skills and seeing the effects in various conditions. Thx for your insight NZMaule and Zane.

JB

Flying 3500 miles of pipeline on a weekly basis gave me a pretty good data base of weather conditions, both in the middle of the country and in the Rocky Mountains and desert southwest. Widespread low ceilings and low visibility generally limits us to one valley in the desert and mountains. However, this condition is generally very temporary. Low pressure systems generally move through very quickly with fast moving cold fronts pushing slow moving warm fronts out quickly and not causing occlusions. In the middle of the country, where continental polar air is in continual warfare with moist gulf air, warm fronts, occlusions, cutoff lows, and stationary fronts produce widespread low ceilings and low visibility regularly. In the desert and mountains, I completed my run every week. In the middle of the country, I had about a 98% completion. In the desert and mountains, I never flew in nasty weather because waiting was temporary. In the middle of the country, I often flew under 400' ceilings and with less than three miles of visibility or both.

That said, heat produces high density altitude in the mountains that can be taxing. Heat also produces wind and thermals that can be managed. Rotor clouds under lenticular clouds indicate extreme danger, but are not always visible. Straight up mesa walls can produce funky, unusable orographic lift as well as good lift, depending on speed, gusts, angle, etc. Desert and mountain weather is harder on the back, if you have as much titanium as me. However, mid country weather is much, much more gut wrenching for those who fly in it three to seven days a week.

A 3500 mile desert and mountain pipeline run is a three days a week deal in a C-172. A 3500 mile mid country pipeline run is a three to seven day deal in any airplane.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that it's great to practice all these STOL and off airport landing techniques but for backcountry flying you generally have to get to your strip first (and presumably back again). The weather is something you can't practice in the circuit, and only a fraction of it can be learned through reading, but it can be practiced and skills gained with experience of different events/situations. Mostly it's a matter of doing, matching the weather report with what is actually happening and knowing the limits of yourself and the aircraft you are flying that particular day. Getting down and back out of a mountainous airstrip in different weather conditions can be challenging. Its not a cross country where you can fly over the terrain, you've got to get down amongst it if you want to eventually land. Sometime it's a case of not going, or waiting it out while there, or going for a 'look see' to get a feel for it. Our weather over here changes by the hour and without notice, what starts out as a CAVU day can turn into a complete shambles by lunchtime. When talking backcountry flying in the mountains (certainly over here) I have been more limited by weather and having the skills and experience to deal with it to get to/from a particular strip than any other single factor over the years. The STOL landings come in handy when you have to put down in a paddock, river bed, road, beach etc due to weather
The other option is to only fly on calm, clear days…but where's the fun in that !!!!

Thanks Jim and NZ. After the first comments, I watched the videos on here for some insight into mountain flying and particularly weather effects; the old FAA and Idaho videos. Was talking with one of the CFIs out here that does mountain flying checkouts between here and Lake Tahoe. It is some fantastically beautiful country in the Sierras between here and Tahoe. That alone would be worth the price of admission, but the experience would be great too.

JB

Generally on the US mainland the Eastern side of a mountain (minimum 5k MSL) range will be a desert. Deserts create Katabatic, Anabatic, and Diurnal valley winds. Desert convection is also diurnal and thunderstorms tend to be in the afternoon. I have had a few terrifying trips both morning and afternoon due to diurnal convection out West. Orographic turbulence is also (exceedingly) dangerous in my aircraft especially on floats because my climb and V speeds are reduced.

But, my rule after several years of flying out here:

In the high desert and mountains I like to leave at dawn and arrive before 11:00 AM. This way I "tend" to generally avoid getting TS, DA, CAT related issues.

TS = thunderstorms
DA = density altitude
CAT = clear air turbulence
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orography
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diurnal_cycle
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katabatic_wind
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabatic_wind
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_exit_jet

I think it would be great to distill some of this knowledge for the Knowledge Base. Short of writing a book like Sparky or the other fellas, it would be a good free primer to breaking into backcountry flying. As you've probably noticed, I've made an attempt to outline and stub out some topics but it's pretty thin, just a few paragraphs off the top of my head.

One option is to link to existing threads like this.

Another is to take the time to cherry pick nuggets of valuable info.

The discussion forum is great for following a conversation, but discourse is not always the best way to study. We need to compile. Thanks for all that have answered Mojave Flyer. Good stuff.

Mojave Flyer wrote:...Was talking with one of the CFIs out here that does mountain flying checkouts between here and Lake Tahoe. It is some fantastically beautiful country in the Sierras between here and Tahoe. That alone would be worth the price of admission, but the experience would be great too.

JB

Mojave Flyer, the Sierras are spectacular in their beauty but are tame flying compared to the Idaho backcountry. In part because they lack the breadth of the Idaho mountains, but more importantly they don't have air strips in the bottom of the canyons as Idaho does. From a convenience factor, and as an introduction to mountain flying, certainly go ahead and get some training in the Sierras.

But find an opportunity to spend a day, or three, with an Idaho backcountry instructor (who may or may not be a CFI). I know one who bases out of Salmon but there are folks here for sure that can point you to someone out of Boise, Nampa or Caldwell - which will be closer for you.

Three of the best things for weather flying in the backcountry are:

1. Good camping gear....to permit you to sit tight when the weather is below your personal limits

2. A good book....to give you something to while away your time while the weather is raining buckets, and you're tent bound.

3. Patience

Another factor in backcountry weather flying: There are few reporting stations in the mountains, or in fact, most of the "backcountry". And, when you get up in the morning at your remote camp site, you probably won't have access to good weather information......unless you have a satellite phone, that is. So, oftentimes, you're making weather decisions based on the long range (read unreliable) forecast you acquired before you departed for the backcountry, and what you see with your eyes.

That said, your MK I eyeballs can tell you quite a bit about what's going on in the atmosphere if you study the weather.

MTV

On the weather issues, of course limited visibility is an obvious non-flying criteria. Ceilings lower than the necessary passes to traverse is another obvious one. But to me, the wind is most often the biggest issue.

I have a personal rule of thumb which keeps me out of the mountains if the winds over the passes are exceeding 20 knots. I know others who will tackle the mountains with higher winds, but that's their decision, not mine. You can get some idea of what the winds over the passes are doing by checking the ground winds at different nearby reporting points, but often they're much less than what's in the high country. I've never found ground reporting points which had higher wind speeds than nearby mountain passes, but I suppose that's possible.

Here in Colorado, we have a dozen AWOSs in or near the mountain passes, which makes it easier to find out what the winds are doing. They all have phone numbers to listen to them, as well as discrete frequencies, listed on the downloadable CDOT Aeronautics chart (basically a sectional with additional information on it) at http://www.codot.gov/programs/aeronauti ... _aerochart, and there's an interactive CDOT Aeronautics map which allows bringing up the metars on a computer or iPad at http://www.codot.gov/programs/aeronautics/comtnawosmap. The downloadable chart can be downloaded onto Foreflight documents.

Today, I wouldn't even try the Colorado mountains, although it's a gorgeous day otherwise. We have winds all along the Front Range in the 25-35 knot range on the ground. Those are flyable in the flat country, but not in the high country, and even in the lowlands, it'll be darned bumpy.

Cary

As babies, we learn gross motor control before fine motor control. Unfortunately, in airplanes, we tend to teach the other way around. The same with wind. It is much easier to see what is going on in a 15 knot crosswind than in a 5 knot crosswind. And it is much easier to learn on course thermalling on a hot afternoon in high winds than in the morning in light winds. And depending on ridge lift to produce more than half the power we have available is much safer in winds above 20 knots.

That said, there is a point of no return. When the wind is strong enough to produce really good lift, it can easily be strong enough, up high, to reduce ground speed enough that making the next fuel point can be marginal in a slow airplane. The trick, when true course is into a strong wind, is to thermal up or ride a ridge up to get over the pass and then get back down onto the desert floor.

Flying small, slow airplanes in the mountains on summer afternoons is rough.