Some people just don't figure the rules apply to them.....

https://hungryhorsenews.com/news/2020/m ... Ip2dd1sBLg

Hahaha...jackasses.

hardtailjohn wrote:Some people just don't figure the rules apply to them.....

https://hungryhorsenews.com/news/2020/m ... Ip2dd1sBLg

To be fair, the pilot/owner made her fortune in the banking industry. Rules Schmules.

To be fair. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E55t0ln ... e=youtu.be

Ok, I realize rules are rules and they shouldn’t be there because of the rules but what do you think was more damaging to the environment, a helicopter that leaves no trace when gone or the horses? Sometimes I think those who make the rules miss the point at times. I am a firm believer that responsible use and access by all is the way it should be. Not trying to pick a fight but other than breaking a rule that should have never been instituted in the first place, in my opinion, and being not so polite, what did the helicopter and the 2 people hurt?

Kurt

G44 wrote:Ok, I realize rules are rules and they shouldn’t be there because of the rules but what do you think was more damaging to the environment, a helicopter that leaves no trace when gone or the horses? Sometimes I think those who make the rules miss the point at times. I am a firm believer that responsible use and access by all is the way it should be. Not trying to pick a fight but other than breaking a rule that should have never been instituted in the first place, in my opinion, and being not so polite, what did the helicopter and the 2 people hurt?

Kurt

From my recollection, the rules about wilderness area usage try to strike a balance between historical use, such as using pack animals, and maintaining a feeling of wilderness (that is, reducing things like man made noise, removing buildings, encouraging people to wear and use colors that blend in to the surroundings rather than stand out). If I had to guess, the prohibition on helicopters isn’t because of their potential to cause physical harm, but rather that they destroy the sense of wilderness because of the noise and visual impact. It’s been a long, long time since I worked for the Dept of Interior, but that’s how I remember the rationale for some of the rules.

I personally have a problem with that particular rule. It causes me to have to walk/hike a great deal more than my aging vessel would like at times. However, it has made me far more inquisitive on what road gores up to and behind these areas. I wasn't super fond of that draft rule thing either, but I didn't take an extended vacation up to Canada. Similar rules on land usage exist on other types of land. BTW, personally not super fond of the fact that horses can use those trails. They spread super invasive grasses through their poop that provide really good dry accelerant for fires, aside from that, competing out native varieties as well.

A local here in Flagstaff apparently made a manure spreader's worth of bongo bucks in the billboard business. So he went out and bought an R-44 and got trained up to be a super qualified potential accident statistic. So apparently he went and hooned all over the area and the Mogollon Rim, Forest Service Land, Park Service Land, Indian Reservation, BLM Land, Private Land. He eventually attracted a bunch of much sought after attention. Resulting in not being any sort of pilot anymore. Along with a cheap R-44 being for sale, with a bunch of those I stopped here on Route 66 stickers on the bubble.

I did the runway build for Burning Man for a few years and was the Air Ops/Safety dude for that goat rope. I got assigned two BLM enforcement officers. One being a very tall, physically fit lady who could have pounded me into the ground like a tent stake. So we where chatting in the much appreciated shade about this super cool plateau of slick rock I spotted above Colorado City (which is one of the weirdest places on the entire globe I have ever been to and I have been to some truly unique ones). So I was planning on going up after the event with another climbing buddy to climb up and hoist our bikes and ride it, Its huge. She mentions that she knew it and it was a wilderness area and closed to biking. I asked, so who would be enforcing that? She replied, "nobody." So unless somebody makes a fuss, gathers evidence and gets a cop of some stripe to actually take action, these rules are virtually useless paper wiping sheets.

Rationale and rules can not be used together in the same sentence. I'm sure theres someting in the BCP guidelines about that, Zzz

As usual in these cases, there’s more to this story than is reported in the Hungry Horse News and Litterbox Liner.

For one thing, the helo borne participants in this incident have offered their side of the story to the Forest Service, the news media, and anyone else who’ll listen. You’ll note the absence of any such testimony in the article, as well as one that appeared in today’s Bozeman paper. But why ruin a good story with facts?

The folks who own the helicopter believed they were outside the Wilderness boundary where they landed. They have taken the initiative to contact the Forest Service and others about this incident. And they’re not denying what happened, in fact they are taking responsibility for their actions.

This is a statement which Sam provided to the news media, and sent me, with permission to share:

“We have a deep appreciation of Montana’s special places and recognize protected wilderness is one of the reasons Montana is the last best place. We have both been avid pilots for more than 20 years; we would never knowingly land a helicopter (or use any motorized vehicle) in protected wilderness under any circumstances. On May 16, we flew to Meadow Creek, a public use airstrip approximately two miles north of the Bob Marshall wilderness complex, to camp overnight with our children. On our way there, we briefly stopped just south of the airstrip in a location we believed to be outside the wilderness boundary. We made a mistake understanding our surroundings and we sincerely apologize. We own this mistake and we’re committed to working with the Forest Service and other stakeholders to try to make this right.”

These are genuinely nice folks who do a lot of good things for aviation and for the community.

If anyone here has never made an error in navigation, jump in here.

FWIW

MTV

dogpilot wrote:So we where chatting in the much appreciated shade about this super cool plateau of slick rock I spotted above Colorado City (which is one of the weirdest places on the entire globe I have ever been to and I have been to some truly unique ones). So I was planning on going up after the event with another climbing buddy to climb up and hoist our bikes and ride it, Its huge.

Colorado City, AZ?

Yes the very same. It is the place their spiritual leader is serving a long series of prison terms at the moment in Texas. He apparently got that state's panties in a twist as well, panties off very young girls. The place is like being on the set of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers." They follow you around in big black SUV's and all the houses have tall walls around them. Groups of people point at you as you drive by like your an invading alien, all while hissing loudly. Yep, weird, even by my standards.

From wikivoyage:

Colorado City is the largest and best-known polygamist community in the United States. The city has no facilities for travelers and many residents are distrustful of or even hostile toward outsiders.

Oh jeez! You want to bring Letterkenny style rants into use in our debates here! Cool! I’ll be checking in on this thread often!

For those not familiar, I highly recommend binge watching as many previous episodes as possible to adequately prepare!

Thanks Mike, for the rest of the story. I'm truly glad they're stepping up. I'd love to see that published in the HHN!!
As far as horses....get real. The amount of damage in there from horses is miniscule, maybe even microscopic. Do you think there are no other species that leave the same traces? I've spent plenty of time in the Bob Marshall Wilderness. My Dad was an outfitter there for over 30 years.
I guess I don't see the reason that a wilderness that was set aside in the early 60's is no longer respected. It's a pretty special place, and one of the few with aircraft access that hasn't been closed off for the most part. I hope it remains that way. It amazes me how many people think everything should be totally open to any form of access they choose....maybe we should just pave it all?
To each their own....
John

Not to be too harsh, but we have a section of the AZ trail that was absolutely ruined for everybody by one of the local posse's that ran over 60 horses down the trail, never really designed with them in mind. That and we have invasive grass all over the trail in Walnut Canyon now, a sacred ruin site, National Park, from the horses. The pose has said they would come and repair the trail, 4 years and waiting. I am not un-sympathatic to horses. My family has a rather large horse training/boarding facility in San Diego with something over 100 horses including 4, my family has rescued. Since folks just leave them tied up to the gate when they can no longer afford to keep them. We would have 10 times that many if we could afford to feed them. Then there are all the abandoned saddle horses up by Vermillion Cliffs, where the same kind of caring owners leave them for similar reasons. They just do not seem to survive the winter, providing much needed food for the large California Condor population resettled there.

This is a very real problem, especially in arid sensitive environments. So much so, the BLM staff horses are fed irradiated feed so the seeds do not wreak havoc with the ecosystem and promote wildfires. It is not a minuscule problem, yet the equestrian advocates are very vocal in meetings on land usage. Just a bit slow to clean up after themselves. Not much better than the motorsports folk, which is, well best not go there. The rest of us volunteer to repair the trails. One of my son's Eagle Scout project was to repair a very long section of just such a ruined trail. Took 40 of us several weekends.

Back to the rules, wilderness areas are rather clearly marked on charts. We have all kinds of magenta line generators in our aircraft now that depict them as well. If you can afford a Jet Ranger, you can afford an iPad. If 20 year plus pilots cannot read charts, something is up. I do agree their fessing up to it is a good thing, rare today. One thing the FAA gets foaming mad about is liars. They can be quite forgiving if you fess up voluntarily.

dogpilot wrote:... wilderness areas are rather clearly marked on charts. We have all kinds of magenta line generators in our aircraft now that depict them as well. If you can afford a Jet Ranger, you can afford an iPad...

Ya...not knowing that you're still in the wilderness is a somewhat flimsy excuse, but when you're caught dead to rights with your picture in the paper it's probably as good an excuse as anyone could come up with.

And maybe it's true, though I'd bet the reality is they never figured anyone would know, so why be too particular about it? No doubt a hell of a temptation when you can land anywhere you choose.

As for horses...the invasive weeds they have introduced to every wilderness area in the USA is no joke. I can tell from the air where horse camps have been by the proliferation of spotted knapweed. I don't think it was intentional, but it's really been devastating to huge swaths of the wilderness.

But I'm an optimist...I look at things in geological time and know that plate tectonics will grind every evidence of our existence away, eventually.

So... the cover story in the apology letter is 'we didn't know where we were' but the cover story according to eye-witnesses was 'we're below the high-water line'???

I've backpacked into lots of wilderness areas and seen the results of horses and mules. I've also been on many bike trails and seen the results of that use. I'd rather walk where bikes have been than where horses have been.

As far as the asshats on bikes that go to fast, a hiking stick in the front spokes takes care of that.

tom

denalipilot wrote:So... the cover story in the apology letter is 'we didn't know where we were' but the cover story according to eye-witnesses was 'we're below the high-water line'???

Note one version is from the helicopter pilot. The other is from the guys on horses, via the media. Consider the source.

MTV