My new 180 has a firewall-mounted Odyssey (actually Hawker) SBS J16 battery, and a TCM Energizer starter. It doesn't want to swing the prop past the first compression stroke, you have to let off the button then rehit it to get it past there. Generally once it goes past the first comp stroke, it goes past the second one no problem and about then it fires up. Had trouble yesterday getting that first blade past and ended up with the battery not having enough poop to do much of anything. A buddy hand propped me and off we flew to lunch (with the generator charging like mad). Charging was down to pretty much nothing after the 20 minute flight. Started right up after lunch, no problem.
Today, it took several tries to get that first blade past. I had primed twice then pumped the throttle once but that's apparently too much as when it did fire it was flooded and wouldn't run. Then I ran the battery down again, just like yesterday. Had another buddy take command of the brakes & mag switch and I propped it to life, which took a while due to the flooded condition. Once it fired, it was fine. Charge rate was elevated but nothing like yesterday. Flew for about 40 minutes and went home. Let it sit for a little while and tried the starter-- went right over and fired up nicely.
Logbooks aren't too complete so I asked the previous owner how old the starter & battery were. "About five years, I think" on the battery, and OEM at factory reman about 1150 hours ago on the starter. I think I'm just gonna get me a new Odyssey, and also have the starter gone through. Three or four hundred bucks isn't much for the peace of mind.
But this having to jockey the starter button is a buncha bullshit as far as I'm concerned. I'm curious as to how you other guys who have firewall-mounted Odyssey's do with starting-- is it pretty much like I describe, or does the starter swing the prop right on through the first compression stroke OK? From what's been said on BCP on various threads, it sounds like the Energizer O-470 starter is a good one. A buddy of mine just bought a Hartzell starter for his 180, it has the same p/n as my TCM Energizer with the addition of a -2 (646238-2) and is also called an Energizer. The current Spruce catalog shows both TCM and Hartzell starters so I'm not sure if they are the same animal or not. To further confuse me, the text in the Spruce catalog sounds as if the Hartzell starters maybe used to be made by Lamar.
Oh yeah, on a related subject, I checked the in-flight buss voltage today on my hard-wired Garmn GPS and it was reading 15.7. Wow! I've always heard that you want to see about 13.8 to 14 volts, I'm wondering if I should pop the cover off the regulator and dial her down a bit. I've got a 35-amp generator and Delco-type regulator if that matters.

Hotrod:

My 53 with an Odyssey had the same exact symptoms you describe. Cold starts getting over the compression stroke took a few pokes of the starter. My battery was 4 1/2 years old. Dropped in a new Odyssey (actually a Hawker, they make the battery) and she swung as she should.

I only got a couple months on the new battery then yanked the engine. It's up your way at the Pponk shop.

Flynengr

Check your grounds, we have the same battery swinging an IO-540 no problems and the battery is in the baggage area.

TimB

15.7 volts will cook a battery, boiling them dry. Not sure how an odyssey would react? Need to slow it down though.

.

As a battery approaches a full charge, the efficiency of the charging falls off a cliff. That means the power is dissipated as heat. For thin plate designs like the Odyssey, heat dissipation is a real problem (their manual for their non-aviation product says so). Even short charge durations over 15 volts when the battery is not stone cold dead can overheat the center of the cells in these batteries.Overheated batteries lose capacity and the internal resistance rises. The resistance is important because during a high current operation, the internal resistance will drop the voltage across the starter. The more internal resistance, the steeper the "load line" becomes. The battery can still show a normal static voltage.

Hope this helps. I tried the Odyssey but preferred the higher energy capacity of conventional batteries.

I've got the same battery on the firewall, 460 hrs (5 yrs in December) on the Pponk 3 blade heavy McCauley prop last annual all compressions were 78-79/80 and it still swings like it did new using a Sky-Tech C12ST3 starter. I've got a Plane power alternator and I'm always seeing 14.1-2 V charging. I'm thinking I've got the right setup

load test the battery and replace if it doesn't pass and adjust your voltage or replace the regulator you've probably cooked that battery. As mentioned above check your grounds, the only time I've had problems was when I've had grounds come loose.

There was a thread on the 180/185 club site less than a month ago about this very problem, Hotrod. The solution ended up being a Bogert cable kit, since they found that the engine wasn't properly grounded.

http://bogertaviation.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=17&Itemid=23

We're talking to our mechanic about this issue on our 185 as well, since we are occasionally getting stalled-out cranking on the first compression stroke with a good battery that is kept on a minder. One more thing for the punch list now that it's in annual.

On my 62 180 with a hartzell 3 blade the odyssey has had no problem swinging the blades through yet. Even after flooding the engine and prolonged cranking, it never wore down and fired the engine once the fuel cleared.

The engine on my 180 has a grounding strap on at least one of the rubber mounts- it goes from the engine side of the rubber to the mount side. Think I'll check those to make sure they're intact, might also just run a separate heavy ground cable to assure good grounding. I've heard of engines without proper airframe grounding having the starter trying to ground through the control cables etc.

When I was about 16 I tried to start a mini that I had just put the motor in. Forgot the ground cable and it grounded through the throttle cable which glowed red and then actually welded the inner to the outer. Still remember my dad and our farm hand laughing hysterically over another of my F####-ups!

Check the grounds on the regulator to airframe and for loose connectors. I had a loose ground regulator to firewall that caused an overcharging and kept kicking the 5A protection CB, re-crimped the connector solved the problem. Voltage on my JPI engine monitor showed in the high 14s.

hotrod180 wrote:The engine on my 180 has a grounding strap on at least one of the rubber mounts- it goes from the engine side of the rubber to the mount side. Think I'll check those to make sure they're intact, might also just run a separate heavy ground cable to assure good grounding. I've heard of engines without proper airframe grounding having the starter trying to ground through the control cables etc.

One note on that - even grounding cables that seem to be completely intact can have problems. Over the years, dirt and gunk get worked into the weave and crimps and can change how well it grounds.

A healthy Odyssey should crank that 470 like nobody's business. If it's been cooked, replace it. Check ground, and I'd ditch that generator and get an alternator.....lighter and better charge. My old cub with generator wouldn't recharge the battery from a start in an hour of flight.

There's a reason no current manufacturer of piston airplanes installs a generator.

No need to thank me for spending your $$$



MTV

I've used PC-680 and SBS J16 firewall mounted batteries since 1995 .The battery WILL NOT take a full discharge very well . If you ever discharge one completely charge battery before future use for best results. I make my own #2 gauge battery cables . I have a Schuamacker $39 buck charger 2/6/12 rate from Walmart . On top of battery I add connector with short #10 gauge wires to charge from the oil check door.
If you do manage to start airplane fly for at least hour and half to charge battery been there done that .

Pulled the cover off the regulator today but didn't see any obvious adjusting screws. Hard to see as I was working through the access door, BTW on my airplane the big doors on each side of the cowl have been blanked off and a smaller one added to the LH side plus a small oil door on the top. Great for the big doors not popping open in flight and flailing around, but for working through not so much. Anyway, I don't recall the regulator brand/style but I do remember adjusting the voltage regulator up to 13.8-ish volts on my old alternator-equipped C170. The adjusting screw was real obvious. I ordered a new Odyssey battery tonight so when I install it I'll be able to take a better look inside that regulator.

Different engine and battery, but when I started having the identical problems you've described some 5 years ago, the cure was two-fold:

>New battery--I chose a Concorde AGM battery, which has mixed reviews from others but has been just fine for me. My battery is in the tail.
>Cleaning all (not just some) of the connectors, from the battery through the master solenoid through the starter solenoid through the starter, plus all of the grounding connectors at the battery, airframe, and engine.

One of the things that was done when the airplane was down for its engine was to convert to an alternator. The old 35 amp generator was barely sufficient to run the panel and the landing lights at the same time at idle. I think the alternator is either 60 or 65 amp, and with the extra lights I've had added plus heated pitot and AOA probe, there's still plenty of amperage left over, even with the engine just ticking over.

Another thing that was done was to replace the starter with a light weight starter. The first one, a Lamar, failed on the 4th start after installation. It was replaced with a Sky-tec, which has worked perfectly now for some 650 or more hours (other than when the battery died 5 years ago!).

While hand-propping is an alternative (as we've been discussing in another thread), I prefer to carry a set of jumper cables. With a 12v system, hooking it up to a vehicle is a no-brainer. The only downside is that with most Cessnas, the APU receptacle is between the prop and the wing strut, so that whomever is to pull out the plug after the engine starts ought to be reminded to stay near the strut and walk out toward the wing tip.

Cary

Hotrod -

We are looking at having my cousin plane painted in the next 12 months and need to do some work on the cowling. It is not in bad shape but needs some love. I saw your post regarding your early model cowling not having the right hand door but having a smaller door on the pilot's side. That is ingenious because those big doors have always been a huge pain even with the '55 our grandfather had. Would you be kind enough to post a picture of the pilot's side of the cowling for a reference?

Sorry about hijacking the thread!

Thanks,
Quickdraw

I'll snap some pics when I'm at the hangar today. Personally I would recommend staying with the big access doors, just add some screws at the very top where it tucks into the cowling to safety it. Like I said, the small door is great for not coming loose and flailing around, and also great for just snapping shut with the little push button latch, but the downside is that you have to pull the cowlings to do anything inside there. A buddy of mine does his oil changes (and I think even checks the screen) through those big doors, saves a lot of time not having to R&R the cowlings. Plus IMHO it saves some wear & tear on them too.

There's been several suggestions to switch the generator for an alternator. The generator has been working great, in fact it was charging at about 20 amps after I'd ran the battery down fighting the starter. I do run my landing light for "to be seen" purposes occasionally when it's murky out or I'm in busy airspace, but otherwise don't put much demand on the electrics since I avoid flying at night. Esp since the previous owner had the generator gone through not too long ago, I have no plans to change it or mess with it.
I have a new Odyssey battery on order, should be here by the weekend. The Energizer starter is off and will be going to the electrical guy in town today to be gone through (brushes, etc). I checked grounds-- the engine is grounded through a braided steel strap to the mount, and the mount is grounded to the airframe through a steel strap at all four firewall attach points. The battery ground cable and the battery -> master solenoid -> starter solenoid -> starter cables will all be getting the ends scotchbrited to a nice shiney condition. Hopefully all that'll get the starting up to snuff.