Backcountry Pilot • cam guard

cam guard

Lycoming, Continental, Hartzell, McCauley, or any broad spectrum drive system component used on multiple type.
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Re: cam guard

G44 wrote:Im still having a tough time following you. You use Philips now, you have used Exxon in the past but no longer use Exxon because of an over exuberant sales pitch but may return to it? When you say "their" do you mean Exxon or a different brand than Philips or Exxon. Im sorry but just a bit confused…..

I think he uses Philips, and occasionally Exxon, but no longervuses Aeroshell due to the salesman.
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Re: cam guard

A1Skinner wrote:I think he uses Philips, and occasionally Exxon, but no longervuses Aeroshell due to the salesman.



BINGO!!! We have a winner!!!

Didn't mean to confuse you G44, guess I am not as articulate as other's on here and being in MN has nothing to with it and I am not confused at all. At least I don't think I am. ;)
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Re: cam guard

Ahhhhhh! Thanks Skinner and WW, got it now! =D>

WW, it is probably me, not you…..

G44
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Re: cam guard-- opinions requested (hoo boy!)

mtv wrote:
Don't try to understand him, itll just confuse him more.......he's from northern Minnesota.....yassir, youbetcha..... :D

MTV

Hey TMV, watchit! :evil: I'm from nordern Missenota too and I resemble that remark! :-k ...yasure...
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Re: cam guard-- opinions requested (hoo boy!)

marcusofcotton wrote:
mtv wrote:
Don't try to understand him, itll just confuse him more.......he's from northern Minnesota.....yassir, youbetcha..... :D

MTV

Hey TMV, watchit! :evil: I'm from nordern Missenota too and I resemble that remark! :-k ...yasure...


:D =D> :D

TMV
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Re: cam guard

Great... Now I got this urge to park in front of the f**king TV and watch Fargo on Netflix.

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Re: cam guard

GumpAir wrote:Great... Now I got this urge to park in front of the f**king TV and watch Fargo on Netflix.

Gump



Gump is it time to go out and warm up the wood chipper :mrgreen:

I have no idea if the $25 per oil change I'm spending on Camgard is worth it I just have extra $ at oil change from burning mogas with ethanol in it so i feel compelled to buy snake oil :D
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Re: cam guard

The chemist who designed CamGuard gave a great presentation at the Cirrus trade show last month. We came away very much impressed. Bottom line, I will be using it from now on and no need to buy Exxon Elite. He only had one caution to the TCM powered folks there...Camguard includes 'friction modifiers' that make the oil more 'slippery'. He said it is possible to expect some new slipping of the starter spring on the shaft as a result when a change is made that includes this new additive. ie: if your starter adapter was slipping a little bit before, it is likely to slip enough to not turn the engine following Camguard
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Re: cam guard

In the summer I run Aeroshell W100+, it has an additive that is similar to (but not quite as good as) CamGuard and I fly a lot more in the summer so I don't bother with it. In winter though, I use Phillips XC 20W50 and fly less so I use CamGuard.

This is an article from Aviation Consumer on Cam Guard:

CamGuard Oil Test: Results Require Time
Two tests reveal that this oil additive’s anti-wear properties might not show up immediately, but will over the long haul. Anti-corrosion protection remains the strong suit.

The companies that sell aviation oils tend to view their products as being like Mother Nature—and you don’t mess with Mother Nature. Which is another way of saying that if they thought their oils needed a certain additive package, they would put that package into the product. It stands to reason, then, that if an oil company doesn’t use a certain additive, you don’t need it.

The fault in this logic is that it’s manufacturer-centric—it assumes that what’s good enough for the oil company should be good enough for you. And if an oil maker doesn’t use an additive simply because it costs too much, that’s a marketing decision the customer would be ignorant of, not a technical consideration. This more than anything explains why the oil companies have been chilly toward an additive we think is promising—ASL CamGuard. Our bench tests of CamGuard have


CamGuard, left, is touted as an additive that will reduce engine wear metals and improve corrosion resistance. Our tests indicate that it performs as claimed, although wear metal reduction may vary widely by engine type and time.

proved promising, especially with regard to corrosion prevention, which we are increasingly inclined to believe is the more critical consideration than running wear. We recently performed an informal in-service test of CamGuard and we’re reporting on a more extensive test done by our AVweb colleague Mike Busch in his Cessna 310. His findings mirror our own.
Past Results
In our most recent engine oil test (see Aviation Consumer May 2008) we bench tested BP’s new Aviator line against the other popular brands. Part of that test included wear properties and anti-corrosion performance of CamGuard added to Phillips XC, which contains no specific anti-corrosion package.

Those tests suggested that all of the major oils perform similarly with regard to anti-wear properties. Our lab found minor variations in anti-wear properties, but none that we would consider a deal breaker in selecting one oil over another.

CamGuard’s developer, Ed Kollin, told us his field data showed a 35 percent average reduction in wear metals but our lab tests—done by the same lab Kollin uses, by the way—didn’t reveal this. We conducted two standard tests—the four-ball wear test and the Falex pin and block test. CamGuard’s Kollin told us the additized XC would have performed better had we conducted the test at lower pressures. (Exxon made the same claim for its Elite multi-grade.)

As a rejoinder, we conducted an in-engine test, adding a fresh batch of XC and running it for 45 hours in a Continental IO-520. In the end, such tests are a better indicator of performance than bench tests, in our view. The engine had a total of 710 hours.

Results
The outcome of this test proved mildly conclusive on wear metals. During the 45-hour oil run, Blackstone’s oil analysis revealed minor rate changes downward in aluminum, copper and nickel, metals which correspond to pistons, bearings and pins and exhaust guides, respectively. We noted a slight rise in iron—mostly from cylinders—but Blackstone’s Ryan Stark expressed no concern since iron tracks directly with hours of usage. We also suspect that because the airplane sits idle in a seaside environment, it may have accumulated some cylinder corrosion before the CamGuard treatment.

Would a longer test have yielded different results? We’ll let you know in a few months, as our tests with CamGuard continue. CamGuard’s Kollin told us the results we achieved on the first run of CamGuard were typical. Because the additive scours wear metals entrained in the lead sludge every aircraft engine accumulates, the first run of CamGuard typically yields an increase in wear metals, followed by a downward trend.

To test this theory, we spoke with our AVweb colleague Mike Busch about his more extensive tests in the two engines of a Cessna 310 he owns. Although he didn’t conduct specific anti-corrosion bench tests, Busch’s in-engine test results confirm our bench findings. (For a complete review of Busch’s tests, see the November issue of the Cessna Pilot’s Association magazine at www.cessna.org.) )

For his test, Busch added CamGuard to the Aeroshell W100 single-grade oil he uses in each of the engines of his Cessna 310 in October of 2007. Busch changes his oil about every 40 hours, so the total test time over four oil changes was 180 hours.

In both engines, Busch’s 180-hour test tended to confirm CamGuard claims in directionality if not necessarily by degree. Best case in the 310’s right engine, iron dropped from about 1.1 PPM/hour to a little less than .9—a decrease of about 18 percent. Chrome, aluminum and nickel showed similar modest decreases. The 310’s left engine showed a small increase in nickel wear metals, possibly due to a worn valve guide.

While these trends are desirable and certainly better than having them advancing in the opposite direction, we can’t honestly say we think they’re determinative in the overall health or lifespan of a typical aircraft engine. In a properly lubricated and operated aircraft engine, wear metals trends are already low, so a modest reduction may have no meaningful effect on engine longevity. The larger issue is rust and on that count, Mike Busch’s data revealed a more interesting trend.

Engine Downtime
Blackstone’s Ryan Stark told us when the lab sees spikes in iron wear, it’s usually because the airplane has been idle recently and the fact that Blackstone is seeing more iron spikes confirms what all of us know: Owners are flying less, either because of fuel costs or the economy in general.

Busch’s tests plotted this directly and confirmed the notion that CamGuard’s largest value is its ability to prevent corrosion. Busch’s oil analysis data extends over many years and he has always observed an iron spike after the airplane is idled for a few weeks for its annual inspection. After he added CamGuard to his Aeroshell W100, the same downtime didn’t produce these expected iron spikes, which are caused by rust specks being swept off the cylinder walls by the pistons. This iron is then picked up by the oil. During the years we had our Mooney’s Continental TSIO-360 on Blackstone’s oil analysis, we noticed the same trends.


Conclusion

Combining our own in-engine test with Mike Busch’s experience in two similar engines leads us to believe our initial evaluation of CamGuard has been right all along. The additive is capable of measurably reducing engine wear metals, although perhaps not to the degree that the manufacturer claims. Shell’s W100 oil is basically a single-grade version of its popular 15W50 multi-grade oil and it contains an anti-wear additive plus Lycoming additive LW16702, an anti-scuffing agent. Although Shell claims superior anti-corrosion protection for its additized oils, we think that Mike Busch’s in-engine tests and our bench tests reveal that CamGuard improves corrosion resistance. The modest anti-wear improvement is a plus.

What about cost? As additives go, CamGuard is not cheap, at $24.95 per pint, which treats a typical 8- to 10-quart crankcase and then some. However, if you add it to a less expensive single-grade oil such as Shell’s W100 or Phillips’ multi-grade XC, the cost is about the same as Exxon’s Elite or Shell’s 15W50. However, we think CamGuard has consistently demonstrated the best corrosion protection of any of the oils we have tested. Further, we prefer a mineral basestock oil over a synthetic blend because it has better solvent characteristics to flush the engine of lead compounds.
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Re: cam guard-- opinions requested (hoo boy!)

Beamer pilot wrote:Any other thoughts on MMO in aircraft engines, I use it in my Cummings...

I used to work for one of the larger auto companies - just down the hall was the fuels and lubricants department. One guy there had a display on a couple of file cabinets, one had a sign that said "good stuff" along with a number of brand name oils. The other cabinet had a sign that said "garbage - schlock" and had most of the things that you typically find in the wishful thinking isle at the auto parts store - including the red stuff.

And, there is at least one NTSB report where the cause of an engine failure was attributed to excessive MMO in the fuel.
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Re: cam guard

BCPilotguy wrote:In the summer I run Aeroshell W100+, it has an additive that is similar to (but not quite as good as) CamGuard and I fly a lot more in the summer so I don't bother with it.


That's a good article. But, the article specifically addresses one of your points:

Aeroshell W 100+ does NOT have an additive that is "similar to (but not quite as good as) CamGuard". Aeroshell W100+ has an anti scuffing additive intended to reduce wear. It doesn't have an anti corrosion additive like CamGuard, at least none that's any more effective than any of the other oils.

If you really are running your engine very regularly in summer, maybe you don't need CamGuard.

I run the stuff all the time, simply because sometimes life intervenes, and I don't get to fly for a few weeks, for reasons beyond my control. Note the article quotes Mike Busch talking about iron spiking in the oil after a plane has been down for three weeks for it's annual.

First thing I'd want to know is why Busch's shop is taking three weeks to do an annual..... #-o #-o Unless, of course, he has trouble finding parts......But, three weeks to do an annual? Man, I'd hate to pay one of those bills..... :shock: I know, he's not doing annuals on Cubs, but even a 310 ought to be out the door in three or four days, unless major issues are found.

Anyway, my point is, you never know when something's going to come up that prevents you from flying for a few weeks, and then it's too late to add that Cam Guard.

MTV
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Re: cam guard

mtv wrote:............First thing I'd want to know is why Busch's shop is taking three weeks to do an annual..... #-o #-o Unless, of course, he has trouble finding parts......But, three weeks to do an annual? Man, I'd hate to pay one of those bills..... :shock: I know, he's not doing annuals on Cubs, but even a 310 ought to be out the door in three or four days, unless major issues are found.......


Seems like a multi-week annual is the rule rather than the exception at a lot of shops. Several reasons: 1) the owner has deferred doing any maintenance or repairs for a year ("aw, we'll get to that at the annual") and so it's not just an inspection. 2) the shop gets distracted with rush jobs- flat tires, flat nose struts, stuck valves, etc on airplanes that have to have get back in service right away. 3) f the airplane being annualed is only flown a few hours a year, the shop knows that getting the annual done isn't a priority and they'll use it for fill-in work instead of getting it done and out the door. 4) the owner says "there's no rush"- to him, that means if it isn't done til the weekend, that's OK, but to the shop that means it's OK if it isn't done til next summer.
My annuals have almost always been one-day affairs, because #1 I fix things when they break, and #2 I do the periodic maintenance beforehand. Plus they're always an "owner-assisted annual", so #3 I'm there to do the grunt work, and #4 I can (gently) push the mechanic if need be to keep on it and get 'er done. #5 I'm also ready and anxious to pay the bill, with check or cash in hand when the physical work is done -- that helps to overcome most mechanic's normal reluctance to get the logbook entries done.
Last edited by hotrod180 on Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: cam guard

mtv wrote:Aeroshell W 100+ does NOT have an additive that is "similar to (but not quite as good as) CamGuard". Aeroshell W100+ has an anti scuffing additive intended to reduce wear. It doesn't have an anti corrosion additive like CamGuard, at least none that's any more effective than any of the other oils.


Actually, the article refers to Aeroshell W100, it doesn't mention W100+. W100+ does contain (in addition to the anti-scuff additive) the same anti-corrosion package that is in Aeroshell 15W50. The "+" refers to the additional additives that W100 lacks.

Per the Shell website: http://www.shell.com/global/products-se ... 0plus.html

Also Mike Busch's webinar on engine oil (at about 27:12): http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1149666747001

Later in the webinar (about 1:25:10) Mike Busch addresses the question of adding CamGuard to Aeroshell 15W50 (same anti-corrosion additives as W100+) by saying that it is mostly redundant.
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