I have a new friend who has her PPL SEL. I am planning to get my CFI ticket to help her get her SES and tailwheel endorsement. Until I do, if I give her stick time in the 182 on amphib floats, can she log it? If so, does she log it as SEL or SES?

I know there are some very knowledgeable CFI's and DPE's on this forum, so I figured this might be the easiest place to get the answer.

Thanks in advance,

Pierre

Here's an answer that I agree with:

If you want to takeoff / land on the ground you need a ASEL rating and if you want to takeoff / land on the water you need a ASES rating.

If you fly from airport to airport log the time in the ASEL column. If you fly from seaport to seaport than log the time in the ASES column. If you takeoff from an airport and land on a seaport, split the time in half.

Edit: I read the post wrong. I agree with CompSciandFly. She is not legal to log SES with you in the plane until you're a CFI though, so keep the wheels down and landing on pavement then you should be good.

Thanks to both of you for the prompt answers. Makes sense. Even if it isn't SES time, it will help with the insurance company. Eventually I would like to add her to the policy and they like to see 100 hours in this high performance, complex, amphib.

Pierre

But, wait……there’s more: Does she hold a complex endorsement in her logbook? How about a high performance endorsement?

If she doesn’t hold both those, she cannot legally serve as PIC in that airplane, regardless of Category/Class without an authorized CFI aboard.

Frankly, I’d be REALLY careful “sort of” playing CFI. It’s great to offer some stick time, as long as it’s done VERY carefully.

But, my advice to her: Do Not log any flight time that could ultimately be questioned, even if it appears to be sorta legal.

The above noted “endorsements” carry no specific training requirements, but they are required to serve as PIC.

Be careful out there, and a careful reading of the regs is a better source than “consults” via the internet.

MTV

CompSciAndFly wrote:Here's an answer that I agree with:

If you want to takeoff / land on the ground you need a ASEL rating and if you want to takeoff / land on the water you need a ASES rating.

If you fly from airport to airport log the time in the ASEL column. If you fly from seaport to seaport than log the time in the ASES column. If you takeoff from an airport and land on a seaport, split the time in half.

Leave the gear down?


Not relevant to said student, but the logging of time in amphibs has always been a interesting area, with my electronic logbook any time I fly in a N number that is a amphib gets logged as such

They fly the same in the air, so real world if one wanted to be super accurate with the differences the only time that should be logged sea should short final to the dock/ramp, as the plane handles exactly the same in every other phase of flight which is probably 95% of the flight time


If it were me, I’d just have her get her floats with a local school, should be able to get it done in a weekend or so if she can hit it full time, maybe let them use your plane if you feel comfortable with the CFI, she’ll come back SES with all endorsements etc and you can CFI her when you get done, or both log PIC as appropriate without any question in the mean time

Logging ampig time is indeed a “gray area” in regs (and, yes, it’s spelled correctly ).

My personal policy was if I landed in water on a trip, it all got logged as Sea, but originated and landed on land, I just split the trip 50/50.

But, the point here is she can’t log ANY time in that plane without a CFI aboard.

Now, if she were endorsed for HP and Complex, she could legally log SEL time only, since she holds appropriate Category and Class.

MTV

So, if I’m flying an amphibious FLOATplane, I shouldn’t log seaplane time if I don’t start or finish in water? I should only log half the time if one end of the flight was on wheels?
It’s still a floatplane when it’s on land, right?

What if I take off from a trailer with straight floats, and then land it in the grass, sel time in a straight float FLOATplane?

StillLearning wrote:So, if I’m flying an amphibious FLOATplane, I shouldn’t log seaplane time if I don’t start or finish in water? I should only log half the time if one end of the flight was on wheels?
It’s still a floatplane when it’s on land, right?

What if I take off from a trailer with straight floats, and then land it in the grass, sel time in a straight float FLOATplane?

If you’re rated and swinging floats log it

The people who are against this, un popular opinion, tend to be old float plane pilots afraid of becoming antiquated

StillLearning wrote:So, if I’m flying an amphibious FLOATplane, I shouldn’t log seaplane time if I don’t start or finish in water? I should only log half the time if one end of the flight was on wheels?
It’s still a floatplane when it’s on land, right?

What if I take off from a trailer with straight floats, and then land it in the grass, sel time in a straight float FLOATplane?

That’s certainly not what I suggested. If you’re rated, and in a seaplane, you can log the time “appropriately to conditions”. Now, if you log a flight as SES, with one landing and one takeoff, departed on a paved runway and landed on same, that bit of SES time might look a bit suspicious.

But who cares? Simple answer: You apply for a job flying seaplanes, with a bunch of that in your logbook…..you might not get the job.

One thing people seem to forget: A “logbook” is not required by the FAA. Now, they do require that you keep a “record” of some things, like enough landings to be legal to carry passengers, but if you don’t carry passengers, you don’t even have to log that.

So, log this stuff however it pleases you. But understand that if you are ever going to USE that record for anything other than personal gratification, it probably should be arguably accurate.

All I did was noted how I logged amphib time. And that is demonstrably legit. There are other ways to skin that cat.

But, the answer to the original question in this thread is still No, she cannot “legally” log time in that plane with out a CFI aboard.

MTV

StillLearning wrote:So, if I’m flying an amphibious FLOATplane, I shouldn’t log seaplane time if I don’t start or finish in water? I should only log half the time if one end of the flight was on wheels?
It’s still a floatplane when it’s on land, right?

What if I take off from a trailer with straight floats, and then land it in the grass, sel time in a straight float FLOATplane?

Yes actually, my opinion is that if you take off from a trailer with straight floats and then land it in grass, it's SEL time. Here's why I say this.

Based on the FAA Seaplane handbook, in the first chapter, it mentions it's referring directly to regulations related to water. Therefore, it can be inferred that the term "seaplane" is being used to define a plane performing water operations. A "landplane" is one in which performs operations on land. An "airplane" is one which performs operations through air. Amphibious just means that it can perform operations in both land and water. Due to the fact that we do not differentiate logged time in the air versus logged time on the ground or water, we have some rather simple logical reasoning which can be applied. If we take off on water, regardless of if your plane has "FLOATS", that's considered water (i.e. seaplane) operations. If we take off on land, regardless of if your plane has "FLOATS", that's considered land (i.e. landplane) operations. Is it advisable to land on water with wheels, majority of the time, no. Can it be done? Yes. Is it advisable to land on land with floats, majority of the time, no. Is it possible? Yes.

Reading Chapter 2 of the handbook, it mentions "There are two main types of seaplane: flying boats (often
called hull seaplanes) and floatplanes". This very specifically mentions "two main types", which implies that there are lesser used "types" of seaplanes. It did not mention, "there are only two types". So the logic still holds.

Let's take a further look at a funny example. Let's say I was flying my airplane and decided I wanted to land on a gravel bar but needed as much room as I could afford. So, I decide to first touch my main wheels down onto the water before the edge of the gravel bar for some extra room. Yes, I have bushwheels and I did touch down on water first prior to touching land. Can this be logged as SES time since I am SES rated? The federal definition of a water vessel: "means every description of watercraft or other artificial contrivance used, or capable of being used, as a means of transportation on water". In my personal opinion, an airplane on bushwheels cannot reliably be deemed as a capable means of transportation on water. The definition does not include the term reliably though, it just needs to have the capability of being able to do so. If we look further into federal documents regarding the term "transportation" we're provided with the following definition: Transportation means providing transportation to and from needed services, resources and facilities. So, it can be said that if there was a floating house in the middle of a lake and the owner has a float equipped Supercub which he starts up and taxis across the lake a bit to a floating grocery, this would be water transportation. In the same scenario, a supercub with bushwheels would have no means of doing this, unless you added some sort of floating dock underneath the plane in which the tires were held in place.

There are many various types of scenarios such as this, you just have to use your brain to think it out. Otherwise, there's no point in talking about it. Taking your sarcastic example, "if I take off from a trailer with straight floats, and then land it in the grass, sel time in a straight float FLOATplane". What's under the FLOATplane? A trailer. What's under the trailer? Land. You're using the trailer as a means of maneuvering land in your airplane (i.e transportation). Given the above descriptions, you can see why it'd be silly to think you would call this water operations. Going further, can we land on grass in a float equipped plane? Yes. Can I get from point A to point B in a float equipped plane on land? Yes. Is it reliable? Not really. Is it reliable to take off and land in boulder fields with an airplane equipped with small tires? No.

Answering your other question, "It’s still a floatplane when it’s on land, right?" The definition from the FAA Seaplane handbook of a floatplane is: "floatplanes typically are conventional landplanes that have been fitted with separate floats (sometimes called pontoons) in place of their wheels. The fuselage of a floatplane is supported well above the water’s surface.". Therefore, yes it is still considered a floatplane when it's on land. However, being on land by definition is not water operations, right? With the logic you were trying to convey, it can be said that you would seem to think roller skiing/ water skiing/ snow skiing are all water skiing.

NineThreeKilo wrote:

StillLearning wrote:So, if I’m flying an amphibious FLOATplane, I shouldn’t log seaplane time if I don’t start or finish in water? I should only log half the time if one end of the flight was on wheels?
It’s still a floatplane when it’s on land, right?

What if I take off from a trailer with straight floats, and then land it in the grass, sel time in a straight float FLOATplane?

If you’re rated and swinging floats log it

The people who are against this, un popular opinion, tend to be old float plane pilots afraid of becoming antiquated

Meh, I think it's a little disingenuous to log float time if you're landing amphibs on pavement without ever touching water. I wish I was an old float pilot in danger of becoming antiquated.

To me, float time is experience operating on water. I could never tell someone with a straight face that I had 500 hours float time if half that was pavement pounding.

Zzz wrote:

NineThreeKilo wrote:

StillLearning wrote:So, if I’m flying an amphibious FLOATplane, I shouldn’t log seaplane time if I don’t start or finish in water? I should only log half the time if one end of the flight was on wheels?
It’s still a floatplane when it’s on land, right?

What if I take off from a trailer with straight floats, and then land it in the grass, sel time in a straight float FLOATplane?

If you’re rated and swinging floats log it

The people who are against this, un popular opinion, tend to be old float plane pilots afraid of becoming antiquated

Meh, I think it's a little disingenuous to log float time if you're landing amphibs on pavement without ever touching water. I wish I was an old float pilot in danger of becoming antiquated.

To me, float time is experience operating on water. I could never tell someone with a straight face that I had 500 hours float time if half that was pavement pounding.

I get that, but following that logic we should only log the few tenths taking off and few for landing on water, and the taxi on water, in the air it flys exactly the same, but if we did that you’d need like 2,166hrs flying floats to show 500hrs float time with that conversion

I look more at what type of float flying, flying the same route to a big old body of water with a nice dock/ramp on both ends, VFR straight floats, to me that’s less than flying skinny rivers, picking up a IFR, flying IMC to a approach at mins in a amphib

As there are no clear FAR, and I’d really ask no one go do anything crazy like ask the FAA for a “interpretation”, I also look at the insurance peeps, after all many times they are who make the mins, try to get a land only insurance rate on a amphib if you say you’ll never land in water, forgedaboutit!

If they consider any time I have floats under me as float risk level, and charge premiums and deductibles as such, should log as such too

You asked specifically on logging, and there's many opinions, mine is this. A person shouldn't log time that they are not certified / rated for unless they are also logging it as dual received with a CFI signature as they are getting trained for it. So flying with you, she can't log dual, as you're not a CFI. So the only thing she could log is PIC during SEL operations (if properly certified / rated). She can't log SES, she's not certified for it, and not getting dual to be trained for it.

I think the important thing to focus on is acting / serving as PIC, can you legally do it or not...and that has nothing to do with logging it. My certificate is for land only....yet I've flown quite a few cubs on floats, but I've never done a water taxi, water take off, or water landing. I'm not certified and trained to do so. Though once out of the water operations area, I've taken controls and been the PIC...and handed controls back during decent, again, as I'm not legally allowed to land the plane... unless I'm getting trained and a properly certified CFI is in the aircraft with me, providing the training. All that is regardless of logging. And all this makes me sad because I so want to get my SES!

Like others have said, I would say if your friend is SEL and has her HP and complex endorsements, she can act as PIC and fly the plane when outside of water operations. The 182 is clearly HP, and amphibs are retractable gear, so that's the complex. If she does not have both endorsements, then she can't be the PIC unless there is a CFI on board and she's receiving training.

NineThreeKilo wrote: I get that, but following that logic we should only log the few tenths taking off and few for landing on water, and the taxi on water, in the air it flys exactly the same, but if we did that you’d need like 2,166hrs flying floats to show 500hrs float time with that conversion

I look more at what type of float flying, flying the same route to a big old body of water with a nice dock/ramp on both ends, VFR straight floats, to me that’s less than flying skinny rivers, picking up a IFR, flying IMC to a approach at mins in a amphib

As there are no clear FAR, and I’d really ask no one go do anything crazy like ask the FAA for a “interpretation”, I also look at the insurance peeps, after all many times they are who make the mins, try to get a land only insurance rate on a amphib if you say you’ll never land in water, forgedaboutit!

If they consider any time I have floats under me as float risk level, and charge premiums and deductibles as such, should log as such too

Kind of reminds me of when I was getting my PPL and a CFI asked me if I was wanting to fly for a living or not, as that might affect how I log my flights....as it would be used as a resume. You know, thinking of the OPs question, it's really about getting time logged for insurance. So is an insurance company looking for time in the specific "N" number, or are they looking for 'x' number of SES hours logged? I'm with you in a way, how do you log SES if it's only for the time on the water, man, you'd never get the insurance or a job. But I also see Z's point too, kinda silly to think that doing 200hrs of touch and goes in an amphib 182 in the middle of Kansas should be 200hrs of float time. This is why logging is really silly and why the FAA stays away from defining it clearly, all kinds or quirks to it.

In the end, I think if someone wanted to go fly floatplanes for a job, they probably wouldn't be padding the logbook with land only hours in an amphib anyway... and someone doing the hiring would really want to figure out what my flying experience was, not just me saying I have the hours in my logbook.

As for insurance, well, if they want x SES hours in that plane, have her go get the SES and then she can act and log PIC in your plane with a CFI or you as the owner (usually insurance allows that) and then get the hours done so she can go do her own thing as named on your insurance.

Insurance said I had to have 10 hours of land operation in a 172 on amphibs before I could solo on water. Because they care more about “amphib” than SES, that’s how I log it. The insurance risk is getting the gear up or down at the wrong time. That risk is similar for landing on the runway or the lake.

If the friend isn’t SES but does have complex and high performance endorsements, I’d tell her to log it as amphib time.

StuBob wrote:Insurance said I had to have 10 hours of land operation in a 172 on amphibs before I could solo on water. Because they care more about “amphib” than SES, that’s how I log it. The insurance risk is getting the gear up or down at the wrong time. That risk is similar for landing on the runway or the lake.

If the friend isn’t SES but does have complex and high performance endorsements, I’d tell her to log it as amphib time.

I like that, just log it as amphib.... no water landings or takeoffs, but you can still show insurance that you've got hours operating the aircraft...and therefore gear, for at least land operations.

Can I ask a follow on question to this? What if youre plane was a Beaver on Amphibs. Do you need a tailwheel endorsement for that if youre only landing on land in the amphib configuration. Obviously you need the HP and Complex endorsements.

Josef wrote:Can I ask a follow on question to this? What if youre plane was a Beaver on Amphibs. Do you need a tailwheel endorsement for that if youre only landing on land in the amphib configuration. Obviously you need the HP and Complex endorsements.

This is why this is fun, so many twists. I do believe the answer is that since the Beaver was certificated as a tailwheel, you need to have the tailwheel endorsement, unless you are more experienced in age before that existed , even though it's not flying as a tailwheel when on amphibs. Yay can of worms! I mean same for us flying Cubs on straight floats... pretty sure you still need to have that endorsement, even though you're operating it without a tailwheel and only on water. I say we all just get trained for everything, I mean, that pays my bills, so I may be biased that everyone goes and gets all the certs, ratings and endorsements!

NineThreeKilo wrote: If they consider any time I have floats under me as float risk level, and charge premiums and deductibles as such, should log as such too

Ha, now that is logic I can agree with.