If you can legally log it, log it


I have a friend who I was talking to, we were talking about newly typed jet capts flying left seat but with another capt right seat for the first XX hours, he said the newly typed left seater shouldn’t log it as PIC, even though he is acting as PIC per the FAR, his logic was some companies don’t count that time, my response was log what you legally can, any company who disagrees with the FARs to that extreme probably might not be somewhere you’d want to hang your hat anyways

Tadpole wrote:

Josef wrote:Can I ask a follow on question to this? What if youre plane was a Beaver on Amphibs. Do you need a tailwheel endorsement for that if youre only landing on land in the amphib configuration. Obviously you need the HP and Complex endorsements.

This is why this is fun, so many twists. I do believe the answer is that since the Beaver was certificated as a tailwheel, you need to have the tailwheel endorsement, unless you are more experienced in age before that existed , even though it's not flying as a tailwheel when on amphibs. Yay can of worms! I mean same for us flying Cubs on straight floats... pretty sure you still need to have that endorsement, even though you're operating it without a tailwheel and only on water. I say we all just get trained for everything, I mean, that pays my bills, so I may be biased that everyone goes and gets all the certs, ratings and endorsements!

Airplane on floats is not a “conventional gear” aircraft, therefore NO t/w endorsement required. I’ve float rated several folks in Huskys, cubs, 180/185. Never checked to see if any had T/W endorsement.

MTV

StuBob wrote:Insurance said I had to have 10 hours of land operation in a 172 on amphibs before I could solo on water. Because they care more about “amphib” than SES, that’s how I log it. The insurance risk is getting the gear up or down at the wrong time. That risk is similar for landing on the runway or the lake.

If the friend isn’t SES but does have complex and high performance endorsements, I’d tell her to log it as amphib time.

In general, logbooks require the entries of “Category” and “Class”. “Amphibian” is neither. There are or have been, amphibious helicopters, for example. So, you log time as “Amphibian” and none of your landings/takeoffs count as either SES or SEL. So, are you current, as in logged three landings/takeoffs in last 90 days in Category and Class? Nope. And if the fed is looking for something…..

As I noted above, it’s YOUR logbook, but understand that things can and do happen which may result in “Someone” requiring that you turn that book over for inspection.

For insurance purposes, there are “spare” columns in most logbooks. That’s the place to note “Amphibian”. It’s irrelevant to the FAAs requirement to keep records. But do not fail to log what IS required.

MTV

And to follow up on MTV's comment regarding tailwheel/seaplane configurations...I have seen a few float pilots that have tons of hours in Beavers and 185s that are completely not proficient or sound operating them on wheels. It isn't just an accident of the endorsement process...operating in one environment does not prepare you for the other.

mtv wrote:

StuBob wrote:Insurance said I had to have 10 hours of land operation in a 172 on amphibs before I could solo on water. Because they care more about “amphib” than SES, that’s how I log it. The insurance risk is getting the gear up or down at the wrong time. That risk is similar for landing on the runway or the lake.

If the friend isn’t SES but does have complex and high performance endorsements, I’d tell her to log it as amphib time.

In general, logbooks require the entries of “Category” and “Class”. “Amphibian” is neither. There are or have been, amphibious helicopters, for example. So, you log time as “Amphibian” and none of your landings/takeoffs count as either SES or SEL. So, are you current, as in logged three landings/takeoffs in last 90 days in Category and Class? Nope. And if the fed is looking for something…..

As I noted above, it’s YOUR logbook, but understand that things can and do happen which may result in “Someone” requiring that you turn that book over for inspection.

For insurance purposes, there are “spare” columns in most logbooks. That’s the place to note “Amphibian”. It’s irrelevant to the FAAs requirement to keep records. But do not fail to log what IS required.

MTV

On that note that’s where electronic logs rock, insurance can ask me while I’m in the field how many hours amphibian do I have in the last 6mo, and how many hours 185 in the last year, oh and how many hours turbine in the last 16 days, I can pull the data off my phone in less than a minute

And logging it is as simple as hitting record at engine start, hit again at engine stop, select tail number, quick glance over and submit

Plus currency is right there

NineThreeKilo wrote:

mtv wrote:

StuBob wrote:Insurance said I had to have 10 hours of land operation in a 172 on amphibs before I could solo on water. Because they care more about “amphib” than SES, that’s how I log it. The insurance risk is getting the gear up or down at the wrong time. That risk is similar for landing on the runway or the lake.

If the friend isn’t SES but does have complex and high performance endorsements, I’d tell her to log it as amphib time.

In general, logbooks require the entries of “Category” and “Class”. “Amphibian” is neither. There are or have been, amphibious helicopters, for example. So, you log time as “Amphibian” and none of your landings/takeoffs count as either SES or SEL. So, are you current, as in logged three landings/takeoffs in last 90 days in Category and Class? Nope. And if the fed is looking for something…..

As I noted above, it’s YOUR logbook, but understand that things can and do happen which may result in “Someone” requiring that you turn that book over for inspection.

For insurance purposes, there are “spare” columns in most logbooks. That’s the place to note “Amphibian”. It’s irrelevant to the FAAs requirement to keep records. But do not fail to log what IS required.

MTV

On that note that’s where electronic logs rock, insurance can ask me while I’m in the field how many hours amphibian do I have in the last 6mo, and how many hours 185 in the last year, oh and how many hours turbine in the last 16 days, I can pull the data off my phone in less than a minute

And logging it is as simple as hitting record at engine start, hit again at engine stop, select tail number, quick glance over and submit

Plus currency is right there

Just make absolutely certain, double double certain, that information is securely backed up. I lost some hours once relying on a "secure system".

MTV

mtv wrote:

NineThreeKilo wrote:

mtv wrote:

StuBob wrote:Insurance said I had to have 10 hours of land operation in a 172 on amphibs before I could solo on water. Because they care more about “amphib” than SES, that’s how I log it. The insurance risk is getting the gear up or down at the wrong time. That risk is similar for landing on the runway or the lake.

If the friend isn’t SES but does have complex and high performance endorsements, I’d tell her to log it as amphib time.

In general, logbooks require the entries of “Category” and “Class”. “Amphibian” is neither. There are or have been, amphibious helicopters, for example. So, you log time as “Amphibian” and none of your landings/takeoffs count as either SES or SEL. So, are you current, as in logged three landings/takeoffs in last 90 days in Category and Class? Nope. And if the fed is looking for something…..

As I noted above, it’s YOUR logbook, but understand that things can and do happen which may result in “Someone” requiring that you turn that book over for inspection.

For insurance purposes, there are “spare” columns in most logbooks. That’s the place to note “Amphibian”. It’s irrelevant to the FAAs requirement to keep records. But do not fail to log what IS required.

MTV

On that note that’s where electronic logs rock, insurance can ask me while I’m in the field how many hours amphibian do I have in the last 6mo, and how many hours 185 in the last year, oh and how many hours turbine in the last 16 days, I can pull the data off my phone in less than a minute

And logging it is as simple as hitting record at engine start, hit again at engine stop, select tail number, quick glance over and submit

Plus currency is right there

Just make absolutely certain, double double certain, that information is securely backed up. I lost some hours once relying on a "secure system".

MTV

Agree 100%

A server or “the cloud” is just someone else’s computer

Mine is locally synced between my iPad and iPhone, and once a month I back all that up to a removable drive, very little work and more safe and secure than my old paper logs

NineThreeKilo wrote:A server or “the cloud” is just someone else’s computer

o_O Yikes. Not at all.

A good cloud set-up incorporates redundancy. No single failure should attribute to data loss. In addition, as with any decent cloud architecture, your data is saved in multiple physical locations. Due to natural disasters and various anthropogenic processes/risks, data is often saved in physical locations separated by at least 100 miles. Foreflight in particular outsources to companies such as Vero and Zandesk which have data centers in various locations.

With that being said, I am believer in both Cloud and secure Local storage for important personal data. The main risk is not that the cloud companies are going to lose your data. In my opinion, the bigger risk is of your data being deleted by a malicious user, one could get their Foreflight account hacked because they have insecure technological tendencies. These things happen every day, someone loses their iPhone and the person who found it easily guesses your password. Or maybe you log-in to Foreflight on a public computer and forget to log-off. Not only that, maybe you're using your iPhone in Starbucks, waiting for your coffee you decide to use the public WiFi. in that case, someone pack sniffing the network can capture your password.

The best thing you can do is implement redundancy with your own data such as various forms and locations of storing data. House burns down? No problem, my safety deposit box at the bank contains terabytes encrypted data. Bank burns down? No problem, it's encrypted in the cloud. If those 3 sources some how fail at the same time, then you'd be in apocalyptic territory.

At the end of the day, most users do not need to worry about their cloud data being lost. Let the people you're paying to protect your data, protect your data. Have something particularly important? Save it locally as well. With that said, any modern "cloud" is light years away from being simply just a server or someone else's computer. I'd go on further to explain, but the information above is enough for the intended purpose and audience.