1SeventyZ wrote:You ought to invent a Hammerhead lever.

1SeventyZ wrote:You ought to invent a Hammerhead lever.

Hey, I have already marked this territory. I am the BCPrick and do not forget it.

Tim

I have a question for all and any who choose to answer. It has been said that some can canyon turn in three wing lengths, and some are doing hammerheads in a wingspan, etc, etc, etc... I wonder how many folks really truly know, how tight they are turning. Have any of the canyon turners or over the toppers GPS'd their tracks and put it to measure? Can you really do it in 100' ?
I'm just wondering, because what feels like "whipping it right around" may be surprising when you put it to numbers... and what may startle most folks even more is what happens to that radius, when you factor in the wind, because most everyone tends to fly down the right side of a canyon, rather than the leeward side.
Definitely not interested in another pee fiasco... just wondering how many people know?

Evenin Rob
I'm gonna fly in the AM. I'll try the turn and see what I get. Will the 496 go down to that detail?
I'll let ya know what I find.
Gary

I have a field that is 1100 ft long and divided into 20 44 ft wide checks (flood irrigation). I could fly up the field at 2000 agl on sunny day and follow shadow. Just count the checks and do the math. Need no stinkin GPS.

Tim

1SeventyZ wrote:You ought to invent a Hammerhead lever.

You could call it the EZHammer. Put me down for one when they're ready.

That is some funny shit....I don't know anything bout the hammerhead, but if I had the EZHammer I'd sure give it hell

qmdv wrote:Hey, I have already marked this territory

Uhhh, is that why my leg had been feeling wet lately?

EZ Hammer... yeah that's it. Just pull one lever and the airplane executes a perfect canyon reversal !

Nahhh, making the flap lever more convenient and faster to use is a far more important pursuit in the grand scheme of things

I love you guys, truly. Sparring with words and throwing literary karate chops at each other, watching people's egos burst open like peacock feathers at the slightest provocation, wild boars spraying testosterone around... what fun. I hope nobody takes all this stuff too seriously. It's like the "locker room interviews" on TV wrestling much of the time. We all love airplanes, we've all made whatever sacrifices we made to live an aviation lifestyle, we're all in the same boat with 90% common needs, fears and thoughts. The neat thing is that even people who appear to despise each other in places like this would band together in an instant if any one of us was stuck someplace in need of a repair or a rescue.

What a crack-up this place can be... 170Z thanks for bringing it into existence.

Bill

shortfielder wrote:Evenin Rob
I'm gonna fly in the AM. I'll try the turn and see what I get. Will the 496 go down to that detail?
I'll let ya know what I find.
Gary

Hi Gary,

I am on my way to pick up the 180 from DVT myself. The 496 will get amazingly tight, if you have the track frequency set up low. I set the one in the work plane at like 2' and it paints almost as tight as a Satloc
well... pretty tight anyways.

qmdv wrote:I have a field that is 1100 ft long and divided into 20 44 ft wide checks (flood irrigation). I could fly up the field at 2000 agl on sunny day and follow shadow. Just count the checks and do the math. Need no stinkin GPS.
Tim

Hi qm... flying fields is great, but I suspect you'd have to do it at substantially lower than 2000 agl to get anything meaningful out of it. Think of the bucket drop trick, where you can make a bucket hover over a location, while maintaining a pretty generous turn radius... depending on the sun location, bucket = shadow...

anyways, I was just curious if anyone ever put numbers to it... I know what sight picture each plane I fly will turn in, and a in couple, I can even guesstimate within a foot or two

Take care, Rob

Rob

I'll be looking forward to seeing some pics of the new plane, and hearing more about it.
Good luck with it.

Gary

Rob wrote:I have a question for all and any who choose to answer. It has been said that some can canyon turn in three wing lengths, and some are doing hammerheads in a wingspan, etc, etc, etc... I wonder how many folks really truly know, how tight they are turning. Have any of the canyon turners or over the toppers GPS'd their tracks and put it to measure? Can you really do it in 100' ?
I'm just wondering, because what feels like "whipping it right around" may be surprising when you put it to numbers... and what may startle most folks even more is what happens to that radius, when you factor in the wind, because most everyone tends to fly down the right side of a canyon, rather than the leeward side.
Definitely not interested in another pee fiasco... just wondering how many people know?

I know. tom

You mean as in doing a 180 from the windward side of the canyon instead of the leeward side? The radius would increase.
A 10% increase in TAS gets you a 20% increase in turn radius.

porterjet wrote:You mean as in doing a 180 from the windward side of the canyon instead of the leeward side? The radius would increase.

I disagree. I think. Maybe we're suffering from semantics of terminology here. If I'm headed up-canyon with a direct crosswind from my left, that means the left side of the canyon is the lee, and the right side is windward, since we're essentially talking about two distinct ridges, one on either side. Starting a left turn into the wind from the right side would produce the shortest turn radius with reference to the ground.

porterjet wrote:A 10% increase in TAS gets you a 20% increase in turn radius.

Do I smell a "downwind turn" argument coming? Or was this just a tangent factoid?

Semantics, me thinks. I see the windward side of the canyon as the left side in your example. I get it from sailing, although I haven't done that in a while. Being blown onto a lee shore is not a good thing, windward is where the wind is coming from, lee is where it's going. I see where it could be confusing. I'm thinking the windward or leeward side of the canyon while you are thinking about the lee side of the ridge. I wholeheartedly agree turning into the wind gives the smaller radius.

The TAS quote would also apply to GS, obviously the slower you can get the better. I just wanted to show that the speed/radius thing is not 1 to 1.

I don't have a video of an emergency type of canyon turn, but I have several where I am turning in a canyon to go back to a landing spot. These are different than an emergency type. However you have to get the aircraft slowed down, crowd to one side of the canyon, use a couple notches, and make a good coordinated turn. These videos have these types of turns in them. Landing at the Minam lodge # 3, A landing at Big creek with---, A Landing at Mackay Bar downstream, A landing at Johnson Creek. And a landing at Sulphur Creek with the candy bomber. If you are interested and haven't seen these before you can find them here: www.youtube.com/skybobb

I went out and did mine today. According to my GPS I was using about 500' to turn around in. It is hard to believe. Looked and felt like I was turning on a dime.

I'm gonna have to do this again.

Gary I don't think that is too unreasonable, but I'm not sure either. I know that my own perception of distance is usually much different than the real thing, especially when on the move and a few hundred feet up.

gb

porterjet wrote:You mean as in doing a 180 from the windward side of the canyon instead of the leeward side? The radius would increase.
A 10% increase in TAS gets you a 20% increase in turn radius.

Don't you mean groundspeed?

gb

I don't know, my own thought, based on todays experience, doing a canyon turn, as instructed, ain't gonna make a 180, do a 180, in 100'.

I don't know how altitude effects this, but here in Durango, we start flying at about 7K', and go up. For todays lesson, I was at 9K'.

But, doing the math, 60kts. translates to about 100'/sec. Not correctd for temp/alt.,etc. Pretty much a no wind day, and I tried it in several different directions, all with similar results.

So, if I was using 500'????, it should have taken me atleast 8-10 sec's to do the turn, and I don't think it took near that. So, I question that it actually took that much distance. But, guess I need to practice running a stop watch, controlling the power, prop, flaps, yoke,and trottle all at the same time.

Supposed to be another great day tomorrow, so I'll probably go finish what I started today.

Gary