As mentioned, all good points. However I would like to point out one thing from a technical correctness point...

Assuming that you have a properly running engine and enough airspeed to start with, the hammerhead stall can be done in a narrower canyon than any turning maneuver, and will not lose any net altitude.

So you can theoretically get out of a canyon that is only a couple of wingspans wide, at or above the same altitude you went in. No "flying turn" maneuver can reverse your direction in as little horizontal room as the hammerhead.

The hammerhead puts the airplane into the point where you have the least amount of control (the stall) at the furthese possible distance from the ground, rather than while you are flying directly toward the opposite canyon wall.

Using flaps at the bottom of the hammerhead on the way out of the canyon could allow you to exit the canyon at a slightly higher altitude than you came in at. (If you are at the risk of exceeding flap speed in the dive then you already have enough speed to execute a sharp pullout anyway.... If you are not going fast enough to pull out of the dive {doing a secondary stall}, then you are probably below flap speed and desperately need the quicker pullout without a secondary s tall. Damaging the flap hinges is your least concern at that moment anyway).

In short, the "canyon turn" is again a very good maneuver. But it's not the only maneuver and it definitely has some disadvantages in a narrow canyon.

The previous poster is completely correct, this is something you practice in a Citabria until you're blue in the face out in the open... then getting closer and closer to a real valley or canyon a litle at a time. If you do not have any acro experience then definitely get some!

When I think about making a hammerhead turn in normal flying, this comes to mind.

The superior pilot uses superior judgment to avoid having to use his superior skills.

But then, techniques like this are well outside the realm of normal. More like the realm of ridiculous.

EZ

When I think of using a canyon turn, I think of flying in a canyon(probably in an unfamiliar area, or I wouldn't have made thismistake to begin with) in an unfamiliar area, like when I go to Idaho. Make a mistake and go up the wrong canyon. Things start looking iffy, and I start climbing to try and out climb the terrain ahead of me. 2nd mistake.If I have that thought, the best choice would probably be to turn around at that point and get to whereI can circle for altitude, or go look for the right canyon.

Now, in that situation, you are already probably relatively slow and difficult to do a hammerhead. So, I would think the short radiussed turn would be the best choice.

There is a pretty basic rule here. Don't fly up canyons. Now, I will fly up canyons, but not untiI I have examined it from above, and have a pretty good idea of what Iam getting myself into. And I want pretty good weather for these smaller/tighter canyons.

I wouldn't think flying in a tighter canyon you really have a lot of speed anyways. Atleast I usually fly them at reduced speeds.

Not trying to split hairs with you here, I guess,just trying to define my thoughts better.

Gary

I think the best method for most of us is to do a chandelle type climbing turn. Nothing too fancy-- nose up (to 1.5x Vs or so), partial flaps if ya got 'em, full power, hold your airspeed, use 30-40 degrees constant bank in the turn. Be sure to start from the side of the canyon (not the middle). Sparky Immelson's Mountain Flying Bible addresses canyon turns, bank angles versus stall speeds, etc.
60-90 degree steep turns & hammerheads can easily get away from ya leading to altitude loss or worse, if you're not practiced up in them. But if ya wanna do an aerobatic canyon reversal, how about an immelman?

Eric

Interesting thread, and I've been biting my tongue here lurking, seeing the different ideas and suggestions bantered about.

As one who spent a lot of time up North in the pre-GPS days, I gotta whole lot of hours in shit weather, traveling from one 180 point to the next 180 point, spring loaded to get my airplane out of what I'd nosed into. What technique did I use??? Hell, I have no idea. I'd get squeezed into a point where my sphincter started to cut loose, and I knew it was time to be going somewhere else. No hammerheads, no low level aerobatics, no pull flaps and weird turns.

It was ALWAYS being aware of what I was looking at in the next few flight seconds, and did I have the room and time to turn around if need be. Often it meant having a wing 10, 20, 50 feet off the wall of a canyon, or shoreline, or river bank, and NOT flying into a situation where I had no Plan B available to me. Simple as that. No alternative, don't go there. And most important. BE PREPARED to use that Plan B, and commit to it. Box canyons or cloud shrouded passes are NOT the place for wimpy, indecisive pilots.

And when the weather's bad, or in unfamiliar canyon country, you are very busy, and you make those go/no-go decisions every few seconds. It's like running a boat at speed in water with a lot of debris. You focus, and time is now. It's actually hard work. If you're using a specialized turn to get out of trouble, or as your Plan B, you are way behind the power curve folks, and have no business being there.

But, my advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. Not much.

Gump

Come on Gump we both practiced those inside out over the top tuck the nose down full flap full power turns lots of time. I remember watching one over the sage brush at the compound

Like the guy that taught me years ago said. Spend 98% of your mountain time figuring out how not to ever need one.

Seems like we talked about this a couple years ago and I think it gives to many prospectors the thought they got an easy way out of trouble possibly leading to poor planning and worse.

mr scout wrote:Come on Gump we both practiced those inside out over the top tuck the nose down full flap full power turns lots of time. I remember watching one over the sage brush at the compound

The Compound Arrival was just my normal downwind leg at 10 feet AGL. I NEVER knew you guys were sitting there, or had to duck. So sorry.

I never said I don't do 'em. But I do 'em for fun, and to get a better angle on coyotes.

Gump

The last guy that asked about canyon turns flew up a canyon and crashed. Seriously. RIP Berk.

how do I hydroplaning the wheels?

Seriously though, this is a great topic deserving of being dredged up from time to time. Plus it gets Gump and Mr. Scout out of hiding.

gb

I may have misled a couple of you... of COURSE the best way is to not get into a stupid situation in the first place. I never meant to imply that a proper hammerhead is a license to go flying up tiny canyons. That's too stupid even for me.

In another lifetime on a distant planet I flew competitions in sailplanes, and spent a LOT of time in high mountainous canyons looking for rising air currents. Probably used up 8 of my 9 lives without knowing it, for that matter So although I have some experience flying in these types of terrain, it was in a completely different type of airplane.

The point I was trying to make was only that from a purely technical, nit-picking POV, a hammerhead can be executed in a narrower canyon that a flap-turn or Chandelle. Because the hammerhead has almost no left-right displacement. The Immlemann also does not take up any left-right displacement, but most of our airplanes are not capable of doing a real Immelmann without fuel starvation, and most of them don't have enough power to do one from level flight.

Although I've not done it in the 172 I'm now flying, I have done hammerheads in the Taylorcraft and the J-3. Nobody will ever confuse my aerobatic flying with Sean Tucker of Bob Hoover, but I found the airplanes could be pitched up to vertical from level cruise flight, rotated at the top, and pulled out briskly at the bottom at the same altitude as started. That's all I am claiming, and Y'all are correct that it is a failure in judgment to have gotten into that situation where you would need to execute one of those maneuvers.

Here's a thought for the bank-and-yank-and-drop-the-flaps group:

As soon as you deploy flaps, you have changed the structural configuration of your airframe. Your certificated load factor has now dropped from 3.8g to 1.9g. (normal category). How many g's does it take to hold a level turn in a 60 deg bank? Exactly 2.0g's. Got any turbulence in that canyon?? Anything trying to throw you into the headliner? Most normal category aircraft, with flaps deployed, have a negative g load limit of zero; there is no tolerance for negative g's.

None of this guarantees that your wings will fall off if you try it, but sometimes it's hard to tell just how thin the ice is until you hear a crack.

... and of course, being well prepared mountain pilots, we are all flying light, having left the camping gear and supplies at Johnson Creek, right? Unfortunately, that makes this particular situation worse as it takes less force to accelerate a light airframe to a given load factor.

YB

Oregon180,
I was being sarcastic myself.

Sometimes I just sit back and shake my head at some of the postings in these threads. But I cannot do that with this one, especially when it appears that those who are the most vociferous about technique here, have never been there. The posts that recommend any aerobatic maneuvers when deep in a canyon, and down to seconds, are absolute BS.

The amount of time you will have is closer to the amount of time between a fish strike and setting the hook.

You need to be trained, practiced, current, and planning ahead. Some of the planning involves chart and map reviews, local pilot / instructor information, and best of all, have someone show you the area first. A lot of these out of the way strips have their own unique problems and approaches. That last step alone can keep you out of having to ever commit a canyon turn. Having to use the canyon turn as an escape is a measure of failure to plan far enough ahead in the flight, or not knowing where you are to begin with.

Gump’s comments on planning ahead and hinting at how stressful such “conditions” can be is one of the best. It goes along with Zane’s quote “The superior pilot uses superior judgment to avoid having to use his superior skills.”

As usual MTV’s referenced and linked postings are at least 98% accurate or better. I differ only in that canyons imply that you will be turning to lower terrain, sound familiar, therefore you can make a relatively steeper bank without the stall speed coming up to bite you by simply unloading the wing a bit. That means you will loose a small amount of altitude in the process. Generally 30 to 40 degrees is more than adequate, depends on how far ahead you are flying. 40 to 60 can be done if you get behind the decision curve. This also helps to shorten the radius by almost turning the turn into a pirouette. The link to Sparky’s instruction is obvious. Oregon 180’s comment about one hour of instruction will undoubtedly provide the best results and should be seriously taken to heart. This is serious stuff, people die in this environment. I do not consider it an academic exercise.

If you have not flown in the Snag Zone, less than a couple hundred feet off the wall, get some qualified dual before going deep into a canyon. I have seen a couple of pilots from flat land states that quit a mountain flying class because they just simply could not cope with being below the ridgeline, much less “close” to a wall, like a variation of claustrophobia. They stayed for the lectures, but said they needed more time to get used to going down IN a canyon.
A reasonable perspective of how canyon flying can feel to a someone who has never been there is chapter 12 of a publication put out by the National Forestry Service in McCall.
AVIATION HISTORY OF THE CENTRAL IDAHO WILDERNESS

The article is titled.
The Salmon River Run.
George C. Lewis. Also in Flying Magazine Volume 87 Number 2, August 1975.

Another minor insight might be gained from a posting on this board by an acquaintance of mine. Go to “Live To Tell,” search for Trust Your Instruments, read the first story.

There is a problem inherent with linear information. Think of it as similar to reading while running back and forth along several hundred feet of teletype. All the time trying to “grock it all,” or “get it,” in one of those Ahaa moments, is difficult to do by simply reading about it as you scamper back and forth along that “teletype.” This is especially true when you are trying to piece it together from several puzzle piece postings of teletype that do not seem to agree, nor even belong to the actual puzzle. I would even state that if you think you can read about the canyon turn and then go out and execute it, when needed, you are delusional and should stay home. When you need it, you will only have a few seconds to realize the need, and the execution of it happens in about three to four seconds. It needs to be a well practiced, Pavlovian response. By the time you say, “Oh shit,” you should be well into initiating the turn. A demo will work wonders, and help to keep you from developing habits that could kill yourself and others. There is a lot of coordination of events that occurs in those few seconds. It is usually a high anxiety function at best when actually needed.

The canyon turn can be a fun maneuver to learn and practice. It can be a real eye opener on just how tight and quickly one can do a 180 degree turn. It has been stated that the plane can be made to turn within three wing lengths. The primary key is knowing the minimum controllable airspeed for your specific plane and loading. The secondary key is being comfortably competent making turns at that speed.

Real world conditions calling for the canyon turn are generally ugly. You have usually failed in the planning and or in the execution of the plan. Plan ahead to be safe.

For those who would like an excellent, publicly available treatise on this subject, go read Sparky Imeson’s Mountain Flying Bible, starting with chapter 3, page 40. After reading that section you will be able to easily identify some of these BS postings on the subject.

I did not plan on starting all this bickering, I just thought the tight turn was cool.

Mongo

It was good to bring this up. People need to know this stuff, if they want to do this type of flying. Actually, I think it should be taught when going for the PPL, along w/the stabilized approach.

Gary

In the latest MICROSOFT FLIGHT SIMULATOR X one of the tutorial missions has you do the canyon turn.

It's not the same.

TexasNick wrote:In the latest MICROSOFT FLIGHT SIMULATOR X one of the tutorial missions has you do the canyon turn.

Now that's where I'd want to learn a procedure, that if used "for real," is going to be done when absolutely terrified, close to the rocks, and with the immediate knowledge that if screwed up, you are going to hit the ground and die. In seconds.

I've been there, and I think a few others here have been too. Part of "experience" is learning how to function while terrified, and keep the brain from vapor locking when you're scared. Get scared later. I don't know how many times I have stepped out of an airplane, just to get "sewing machine foot" about five minutes after I've shut down the engine. All that adrenaline flooding out I guess.

A joystick on a computer has no consequences if you screw up, and without feeling the physical sensations in the procedure, you don't teach yourself any instinctual reactions to use when under stress.

Gump

shortfielder wrote:Mongo

It was good to bring this up. People need to know this stuff, if they want to do this type of flying. Actually, I think it should be taught when going for the PPL, along w/the stabilized approach.

Gary

What is a Stabilized approach??

I just made My 69th post.