So, the Luscombe engine quits. I lose my most fun toy. Insurance let's it sit upside down for two days. Salvage crew comes, flips it and exclaims WOW...no gas in this thing.
Jump three months ahead. I get a letter Sat. From FAA.
ATP should know better you dumb ass. You gotta come to Riverside and re test for your ratings. You don't show, we revoke.
Now I did provide them my original gas receipt from three miles prior to the wreck...
Did not use eleven gallons in three miles.
Mister junior inspector is convinced someone is lying or tryin to fool him.
So, here is the vote--- come Monday morning, would you make an appt. to re-test or call the AOPA lawyer?
Sounds like the first test of the new Pilot Bill of Rights.... Maybe.

Federal agencies:

Think about TSA
Think about NTSB
Think about Homeland Security

Then CALL THE AOPA LAWYER!!

If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear.

Just play things right down to the letter....

Battson wrote:If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear....

Ha Ha.. sorry, not funny. You have lots to fear. And no rights.

Gump

Battson wrote:If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear...

Esp if you call your lawyer. Kind of a "trust but verify" deal. Did you/they ever figure out what might have caused the engine to quit, other than the mysterious lack of fuel?

Okay, I have to question who on the salvage crew was a trained invesigator and how much of the ground below the upsidedown aircraft was examined for evidence of fuel, fuel blight whatever. That issue all by itself is a real off pisser. Assuming the salvage crew is NOT trained in crash investigation what exactly happened that their guess was conveyed to the FAA and why it was given credence? Bring on the bill of rights but definitely, definitely call AOPA. I doubt the FAA's guilty until proven innocent approach has changed overnight.
Good luck!
FZ

FL, I sent you a PM.

flyingzebra wrote:Okay, I have to question who on the salvage crew was a trained invesigator and how much of the ground below the upsidedown aircraft was examined for evidence of fuel, fuel blight whatever. That issue all by itself is a real off pisser. Assuming the salvage crew is NOT trained in crash investigation what exactly happened that their guess was conveyed to the FAA and why it was given credence? Bring on the bill of rights but definitely, definitely call AOPA. I doubt the FAA's guilty until proven innocent approach has changed overnight.
Good luck!
FZ

Of course you realize, if you spilled fuel on the ground, the EPA's coming after you! No joke, a friend of mine got 15 months in the federal pen for "introducing a pollutant to a navigable waterway." The "navigable waterway" was a half inch deep runoff on a ranch in east Texas that only got wet in a downpour. No matter. They came from DC to "teach a good 'ol boy a lesson."

Not trying to stir the pot, just pointing out these parasites in these agencies make their careers on f*****g with us.

Best,
O-2

Wow!! Been down the AOPA lawyer road and had the worst guy you could ever dream about. Advice: find a good lawyer... Not nessarly an AOPA reccomened one though. I think this is where the forum may help. Anyone know of a good attorney? That's critical! If you get a guy named Robert Cohoun you have just signed up for the revocation and $10k. I also think NTSB judges are corrupt. Going to sit in front of one of those guys is like being a dog tied to a pole.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't!
Good luck! If you did as you say here, you have no choice except fighting it. Again, find a GOOD attorney!

Another question? Is it a 709 ride or a retest including writtens for your ratings? The 709 ride can be a lot less painful. Gas receipt for the day of incident 3 miles prior could be your savior but there has to be more to the story? Curious...The salvage crew came prior to the inspector? That seems odd as well.
Akt

UPDATE. The consensus of votes was to speak to an attorney. Did that this morning.
His opinion: You are right, but it doesn't matter. You can prove you had full fuel, it doesn't matter to them. 75% of pilots who go down...without a clear indication of engine damage... have run out of fuel.
The FAA has their mind made up.
He told me to contact the nearby FSDO in my state, go take the oral exam to discuss pre-flight planning and aircraft performance. (A 709 ride)
Sure makes you feel quite small and powerless when the Feds decide you are incompetent.
So much for 39 years of safe flying and study.

Flightlogic,

I had a buddy flip his 206 when landing out in the west desert of Utah and he had a similar issue. While they didn't say he ran it out of fuel, they still required he retest for his certs. He did so and was reinstated shortly after. He couldn't get insurance after for something like 3 years or it was so outrageously expensive he chose not to (can't remember the exact situation).

In your case, I agree with Aktahoe, you could fight it and it sounds like you should be able to clear your name but it will become a proverbial pissing match with the FAA and we all know they can piss farther than any of us.

As condescending as the 709 may be, I think you would be money and time ahead going that route. Now if you have gobs of money and want to prove your point and try sticking it to the FAA then fight it. Problem is they don't care how much it costs because it is YOU (and the rest of us) paying for it anyway. We all get f'ed regardless of the outcome. Good Luck

Darinh wrote:Problem is they don't care how much it costs because it is YOU (and the rest of us) paying for it anyway. We all get f'ed regardless of the outcome. Good Luck

!@#$% brilliant paying for both side of litigation.

I'm having a turn at a forced dance with powerful beaurocrats at this time.
I won't/don't dare say more in a public forum. There is a lot at stake.

Please don't respond on here, just breathe me a wish of a happy ending under you breath and -if you will-and keep moving.....
Thanks,
lc

Shouldn't there be an emoticon with tears?

Experience talking. Take a deep breath...it will all work out OK.

Politely speak with the inspector and ask what will be re-examined on the 709 ride. Then get an instructor and a copy of the PTS and drill what's to be tested. Show them your medical, endorsements, and currency. Nothing else. Go take the ride, hat in hand, then go on with your life.

I don't think this is a violation type situation, so don't invoke legal council any further. You'll just make it harder on yourself.

As to the insurance issue raised above, my experience was no increase in premium or any issue getting coverage...and this was AK where insurance companies really don't want your aviation business anyway.

Free advise worth the cost.


GB

Should have called the lawyer the min you had the accident. Call him now.

Daryl

If you have AOPA legal services, it certainly won't hurt to call them and get an informed opinion on your options. Perhaps you can get a stay on the requirement to show up for the re-test. Make sure you get any stay in writing. If not, then definitely show up at the re-test.

Good luck.

Update. I am resigned to taking a 709 re-examination sometime down the road.
I hate to have this on my record... but the FAA holds all the power when we get rated to fly.
Yesterday, the accident investigator's boss spent 45 minutes on the phone with me.
He assured me that the investigator THOROUGHLY examined the soil where my plane had been inverted for 48 hours. He saw no evidence of fuel.
Today, I got a letter from the insurance adjuster who supervised the wreckage recovery onsite.
She states that no representative from either the NTSB nor FAA was there when the wreckage was recovered.
I guess I suck it up and go take an exam. Then my 39 year, unblemished record shows I was incompetent in 2012.
Hell, my bladder doesn't last half what two main tanks of gas will. I always stop with a healthy reserve.
Why else would anyone in their right mind be in Twenty Nine Palms California in the middle of summer....
(no offense meant to any readers who might live there!!!)