Zzz wrote:

Littlecub wrote:Afterthought: I wouldn't want BCP to be exposed to partial liability for a mishap. A disclaimer on thread might be (?) sufficient?

We have many disclaimers around the site on registration and on every article page. I don't grant pilot certificates nor do I sign people's logbooks. BCP is purely for entertainment and pilot fantasy masturbation.

The first pilot to sue me for claiming that I or anyone on this website made his decisions for him will experience the full force of my attorney and my personal crusade to see their certificate revoked for allowing a website to override their PIC authority, in addition to not getting shit because I'm a fucking pauper.

Edit: perhaps a bit melodramatic.

And I will donate time and money to the kickstarter project to raise funds to cover attorney fees.
Anyone that would sue because they hurt themselves or their property because of something they read on the internet is a moron that should be removed from the gene pool.

UngaWunga wrote:Anyone that would sue because they hurt themselves or their property because of something they read on the internet is a moron that should be removed from the gene pool.

Fortunately, that's going to be a problem in this case.

I first soloed in a J-3 on my 16th. I learned to fly by attitude and cord line from the start. ...but I will not claim to be a seasoned bush pilot as I have only accumulated about 800 hrs in my 25-wish yrs of flying. I've put nearly 120 hrs on my Bearhawk in the less than 2 yrs I've owned it. I do land it by attitude with airspeed glanced at in the corner of my eye from time to time. The Bearhawk has a broad cord, low-ish aspect ratio wing with a large draggy flap. When slow, it comes down in a hurry. If you are too slow or don't carry any power, I would worry about failing to stop the descent. ...but the video never said to eliminate all margins. If you watch closely, you'll see that most of the landings are nearly wheel landings. These are not the hairy edge approaches that people seem to get wound up about. The point is consistency without using up a bunch of extra space, not trying to win the Valdez May Day competition. I see some, but limited value to virtual landings at altitude. It can be good to learn stalls and slow flight, but you will never get the visual subtleties and precision without Terra firma right there. Learn slow flight at altitude, then learn the landings with some sort of displaced threshold and a few extra knots. Then learn consistency and flight by attitude, not winning STOL competitions. In the real world, the shortest of your landing attempts wins nothing. Your worst can be costly. Work on making your worst landings as good as possible rather than making your best as good as possible. Oh, the Bearhawk mod to the NACA airfoil was recommended to Bob by Riblett.

[/quote] BCP is purely for entertainment and pilot fantasy masturbation.[/quote]


Any chance you could elaborate more on this Zane?

Battson wrote:

UngaWunga wrote:Anyone that would sue because they hurt themselves or their property because of something they read on the internet is a moron that should be removed from the gene pool.

Fortunately, that's going to be a problem in this case.

sorry. that was a little strong.

I agree with everything Kestrel said. I'm no seasoned bush pilot either. I thought the video was great but seems like half the discussion in this thread is about landings much more on the hairy edge than the video suggested.

I'm currently on amphibs not wheel gear, but after watching the video I did glance over at my wing vs. horizon while on final, and noticed that my normal short but safe approach had the wing angle slightly positive. I also fly by attitude but more by looking at the nose vs. the horizon in front of me. So looking over at the wing incidence was an interesting compare.

I also agree with practicing really short landings using a displaced threshold rather than on the edge of the runway. Especially with a ditch. That said, kudos to the OP for owning it and sharing.

Ya know, after reading all that, most of it real good, at least to me, i am way thankful for the few instructors here in IDAHO that teach that stuff correctly...i am also way amazed that some of the people i've seen in our back-country here have large investments in aircraft, like 300k for a new husky, and yet wont spend a few hun or thousand on a pro to help keep them safe...and their pax as well. give the recent events here, i truly wish some folks would maybe play golf or watch more mind-numbing tv crap...versus put everyone around them in a bad spot. been there, damned if i didnt do that. i learned the hard way, and luckily only donated a dumb airplane...! be safe out there u guys, lots of u fly real well, i know. be xtra careful, u r worth it...! and so are your wife,kids, cat and the dog...get some cool training by someone new this year and keep learnin'...

To the pilot that was willing to write that piece my hat is off to you, lots of people would be uncomfortable writing that. I am very sorry about what happened to your plane, and I am glad you are ok. The intention of the video and article was for entertainment and perhaps talking points with a CFI, but not instruction. I saw you didn't point fingers and that is refreshing in my line of work. Thank you.

I am certainly not trying to be presumptuous, but once you get the bird fixed perhaps I can come to you, and spend a few hours with you in person, or you can come down here and do a little flying with me; completely free of charge. I believe we would both have fun.

This is not pertaining to the person's statement above, but in general. Internet posts are not a substitute for genuine instruction. Get an instructor who is familiar in your plane if you want to explore something new. If you are going to explore the backcountry, or off airport flying, get someone who is very comfortable in that environment (they are two different things really). Most people wouldn't try to fly instruments without instruction, and any new aviation skill isn't largely different.

Furthermore this type of approach isn't going to win you a top spot at a STOL competition and like most people have stated, the most limiting factor is take-off unless you own a serious bird. However, making predetermined touchdown points consistently will make you able to choose where you want your wheels to be at touchdown and that is worth something on any strip in any airplane.

UngaWunga wrote:

Battson wrote:

UngaWunga wrote:Anyone that would sue because they hurt themselves or their property because of something they read on the internet is a moron that should be removed from the gene pool.

Fortunately, that's going to be a problem in this case.

sorry. that was a little strong.

Umm Nope, that's about right. Someone who cannot take responsibility and/or consequences for their actions are pretty close to flaky scumbags. The problem is, the persuasive tongue of the lawyer who comes a knock-in when he... I mean "it", smells opportunity. There slick at selling the concept of someone else is at fault for your mistakes.

First, as for most of us here thanks for the lesson and sorry for the damage.

Hindsight is 20/20 and criticizing the video after the event is always easy however as a pilot who maintains a valid instructor rating, (used only with friends and fellow flying club members these days), I must say that I wasn’t very comfortable with the stall horn during the approach and the procedure itself. If the engine has major reserve power to get you back into the power curve it could be doable safely.
As professional pilots we are always trying to move up to faster, higher and bigger aircraft. Unfortunately this also translates to shorter, slower and lower at this end of the spectrum. How short do you realistically have to land? Do you really need that pucker factor on short final? And if you do get it on short final maybe it’s time to increase power and go somewhere else. It is always nice to push the boundaries but only in accordance with your experience and the amount of damage you are willing to incur not to mention personal injury. I would guess that most instructors would be reluctant to practice this landing maneuver no matter the experience level of the candidate. I have occasionally been in the passenger seat with private flying club pilots and said “No let’s not do that I don’t think it’s a good idea”.

This brings me to the “instruction” derived from the internet or any manual for that matter. A while back on this website I was highly criticized for commenting on some pilots describing (instructing?) others on how to water-ski with an aircraft, unfortunately the pilot wanting to learn didn’t have an aircraft capable enough or the experience required to perform the maneuver. This mix will result in an accident. The cost of bragging rights can be astronomical but can only be assessed after the accident.
As for liability to the web site? I would be at the top of the list of contributions to the defence attorney.
Watch U-Tube, any of you try to summersault you motorcycle based on the video instructions? Not to mention other mind boggling stunts. If you try it who do you think is responsible?
As some of our personal log books get thicker and our hair grayer we tend to ask whether we really need perform that maneuver or push the weather and yes we do occasionally clash with the braver, younger and bullet proof crowd.
OK I’m done...

- Information != instruction.
- Information should be disseminated.
- Censorship and promotion of ignorance will not help anyone.

As for the stall horn: different aircraft have different margins on the stall horn, even within type. Thus, a stall horn in an informational video means little. On my private check ride, I was asked to fly a 360 with the stall horn. If a students pilot can fly 360's with the stall horn going, a private with more experience should be able to fly a straight line.

Watch U-Tube, any of you try to summersault you motorcycle based on the video instructions?

No criticism intended Beamerpilot, but if this was "HowToBackflipMotorcycles.org" and that was an interest of mine, I would be watching those videos to see how others did things, and to add to my bag of tricks.

To me Backcountry Pilot means just that. Back country. Minimal strip, mountain or desert, no strip at all, and playing on all the different surface conditions each entails. Rock, brush, mud, snow, and even water on floats or the occasional water skiing fun.

What folks do here always sounds dangerous and uncomfortable to the paved airport guys. But, it is usually not, once you get properly trained in the basics and realize your skill level. Then it gets fun, and you build on those skill levels and increase the trust and your understanding of the capabilities of your equipment.

I am long of tooth, what little hair I have left is gray, and other than currency requirements and company record keeping, haven't made a logbook entry in years. I keep a flying journal instead. I don't really care about logbook hours at this stage in life, I gotta shitload of them if anybody wants some of them. That said, I still love watching the new old pros come up through the ranks, and marvel each and every time as these guys (and gals) transform from timid manipulators of the controls, to pilots who feel and work their airplanes.

The stall horn blares on approach? So what. You're gonna whack the ground if the engine quits? Yup, every single time. Playing behind the power curve can bend your airplane? That's what money and mechanics are for.

And that's what this site is for, to celebrate in the fun and joy of this kind of flying, learn something from those who can, and spread the knowledge to those who think they can't in the hopes of adding a convert or two along the way.

Gump

Amen!

Beamerpilot wrote:This brings me to the “instruction” derived from the internet or any manual for that matter. A while back on this website I was highly criticized for commenting on some pilots describing (instructing?) others on how to water-ski with an aircraft, unfortunately the pilot wanting to learn didn’t have an aircraft capable enough or the experience required to perform the maneuver.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

Wait a minute here... Could it actually be a [GASP] GOOD thing, that the NTSB constantly beats it into us that every single mishap in the history of aeronautics is the result of PILOT error?? As in, PILOT in COMMAND?? Maybe he rest of the world would stop acting like litigious twits if we adopted that approach everywhere. Pedestrian in Command. Consumer in Command. Willing Participant in Command!

Nothing wrong with criticism. I agree and understand the back country philosophy quite well as I made my early living on skis, floats and wheels from singles to Twin Otters in Yukon and NWT for many years, but I learned from old guys seating next to me who prevented me from screwing up and often saved the day, not to mention the frequent slap on the back of the head!

What I mean is the fact that one person has the skill to perform certain manoeuvres doesn’t mean that everyone can do it without bending the aircraft so take precautions and understand the procedure before attempting it. This is purely advisory, not restrictive.

Censorship? No but I do find it interesting that as soon as the word “liability” comes into play everyone’s back goes up!

Stall warning: Yes I understand that concept and operation too. As long as you understand that any wind shear or turbulence at ground level is going to drop you.
Once again, these are not restriction, just observations of the kind of understanding that is desirable before proceeding and sometimes newer pilots are not aware of that.
And last but not least, yes mechanics fix airplanes and doctors fix bodies.

Sorry to hear about this accident and Im glad he is ok and congratulate him for posting.

What about if you read it in a book? watch a video? Same thing?

In my case there are NO backcountry instructors in Costa Rica, I had to learn on my own, a lot of info came from this website, Sparky's book, some videos and practice practice practice.
There are a lot of great experienced pilots here with good advice, I asked a lot and got good advice.


I visited by land the strips before attempting coming with my plane.
I even took a measuring tape to measure 10 short landings before going to my very first short strip.

What Im saying is I hope those experienced pilots who helped me with their advice dont stop giving advice to others.
Im not an expert but I can land at those strips now, and be safe,and have fun instead of being terrified.

I think most pilots would be reluctant to sue someone else for the mistakes they make themselves. However, most general aviation lawsuits are not brought by the pilots but by their widows and orphans. These folks don't want their departed loved one to be held responsible, they are suffering great loss and looking for something to blame and sometimes are looking for a payday. Juries and judges seem to find them very sympathetic figures. Sorry for the thread drift.

Thought I'd gather up some of the nuggets I liked from this thread.

CAVU wrote:..I practice short landings because I think it’s good emergency preparedness and keeps me sharp, but I prefer aiming for a spot past the threshold unless it’s a displaced threshold. ..

piperpainter wrote:..The key thing for me is to set up an area for practice that I know is safe..

kestrel wrote:..Work on making your worst landings as good as possible rather than making your best as good as possible..

learntolandshort wrote:..Internet posts are not a substitute for genuine instruction. Get an instructor who is familiar in your plane if you want to explore something new. If you are going to explore the backcountry, or off airport flying, get someone who is very comfortable in that environment (they are two different things really)..

Beamerpilot wrote:..It is always nice to push the boundaries but only in accordance with your experience and the amount of damage you are willing to incur not to mention personal injury..

GumpAir wrote:..What folks do here always sounds dangerous and uncomfortable to the paved airport guys. But, it is usually not, once you get properly trained in the basics and realize your skill level. Then it gets fun, and you build on those skill levels and increase the trust and your understanding of the capabilities of your equipment..I still love watching the new old pros come up through the ranks, and marvel each and every time as these guys (and gals) transform from timid manipulators of the controls, to pilots who feel and work their airplanes..

To this I would add a few random thoughts (all IMHO) targeted to those new to this type of flying, myself included:

1. If you can't fly an approach and landing without looking at the ASI, you shouldn't be anywhere near 1.1 Vso or 1.2 Vso for that matter. My friends sometimes ask me at what speed does my plane land. I answer "when she is done flying". Not trying to be a smart ass (okay maybe just a little), but I really don't know - my eyes are outside the cockpit.

2. It's amazing how much power it can take in some planes to arrest a sink when landing from a minimum controllable airspeed approach. You can get a sense of what's needed for your plane waiting until you are in the flare, then feeding in power to keep her just off the runway. Be sure and practice this over a long runway.

3. Know how your airplane lands at all weight and balance configurations at all wind and no wind conditions, before attempting an approach at anything near 1.1 Vso.

4. Practice, practice, practice, practice. Little steps.

OP, sad you bent your plane, glad you weren't hurt. Take learntolandshort up on his offer and get back in the air. We need you.

4. Practice, practice, practice, practice. Little steps.

1000 hrs in glider 450 emergency landings I've never had to go around. Fly the conditions, know your machines speeds and feel the plane.