It seems the mission will ultimately lead to a 180. I soloed in my dads 180 aged 16 some 38 years ago and I'm still flying it. It's virtually all I have ever flown. Its not hard, and if it is I dont know that cause I have nothing to compare it to. I am in the camp that its easier to learn what you need to straight up in the 180. You don't know any different and don't have to unlearn stuff you don't need. You might or might not take a little longer. Reading between the lines he has machinery experience which develops a sense of feel. Get the 180 and be done with it.

That's a lot of reply's.
But Salywag, what's that 180 in your avatar?
Not enough time for me to read all the posts to see if this has been asked, but skimming through them I saw where you have an instructor near by.
If that 180 is yours, why not have pops take a couple lessons in it and get a feel for the heavy iron?
Just curious.
Tom

I hate to say this but I think the general premise that it be a 180 or a Cub is flawed, although both are outstanding aircraft (or so I've been told by others).

Lets talk about safety first. We all know a plane with its third wheel at the back is much harder to fly then those with the tiny wheel up front. Okay never mind about the safety first thing, let's move on.

Lets talk about construction. Your Dad would probably appreciate a plane made from concrete, but unfortunately none of those are still flying, which might explain what happened to Jimmy Hoffa. So that brings us to Steel or Aluminium?

Common sense tells us that steel is much stronger then Aluminium, although everytime I walk into a wing strut on one of those stupid high wing planes it leaves a knot on my forehead, so Aluminium is apparently some pretty strong stuff. Which reminds me, lets talk about wing location. And I don't mean those crazy airplanes with the tail up front and the wing in the back. Reminds of the time when I turned a Taildragger into a trike when I got a deal on a Russian propellor - but that's another story.

Where was I? Oh yea, wings. We all know the propensity of taildraggers to ground loop. Under such a circumstance there is a distinct advantage to low wing airplanes. In almost no time at all the wing is gently carasseing the ground thereby providing stability as the airplane rotates around the yaw axis. Note: you might want your Dad to read this as I am introducing important aeronautical terms while at the same time discussing flying techniques such as "slips across the ground" and whether a whiskey compass leads a heading change or follows it in a ground loop to the left or right. And if we think about the "float" that Mooneys and Saratogas have, we can see that a low wing is far superior in a Taildragger trainer. At this point one might think a RV would fit the bill, but alas, there are no STCs yet for 26" or larger tires.

Continuing on the wing theme there can be made a case for the high wing.
1. On the ground they provide an abundance of shade, and help keep us dry during passing rain showers.
2. In the air they keep the sun out of he cockpit (with a few exceptions) thus reducing the greenhouse effect, unless of course you happen to be flying with Al Gore.

So as we can see a case can be made for both high and low wing airplanes, seemingly complicating your decision, but not really. You are not the first person who has faced this decision. In point of fact both the US Navy and the US Army had this decision to make even before World War II. There choice was unanimous. They chose both the high and the low wing. They chose the Boeing Stearman.

Hang on, bear with me here, let's look at what makes the Stearman the ultimate Taildragger backcountry trainer:

1. Over 70 years of keeping its students safe in the enevitable "incidents".
2. Your Dad will learn about the poor visibility traits of both the high wing and low wing airplanes AT THE SAME TIME reducing the amount of "dual" needed.
3. Tire/wheels are 27" tall, an excellent compromise between 26s and 29s, without becoming ostentatious like those guys with the 31s and 35s, I mean really, are we still in high school?
4. 220 horsepower engine is stock so your Dad gets a high performance checkout as part of his private.
5. Planes gross is over 3,000 pounds so the horsepower is "not quite enough" to get him in trouble.
6. Planes net is over 2,000 pounds so will encourage your Dad to eat healthy and not be suckered in to that Lemonaide diet (which I'm pretty sure was made up by kids with Lemonaide stands - you can find anything on the Internet today)
7. Only holds about 40 gallons useable and burns about 18gph which is great when you become my and your Dads age. "No, I don't have a bladder problem, I need to stop for fuel". Its all about perception as you'll find out.
8. Leaks oil so your Dad won't have to worry about looking under the engine area to see if there's a leak - there is. Also he won't have to worry about his knees or back getting under the belly to clean it - what's the point. In fact, the only thing he needs to concern himself about oil is if the leak stops - means it's out of oil.
9. Your Dad can land anywhere he wants and never never never piss anyone off. "Wow that is such a cool plane! Please come back anytime you want".

I could go on and on (and I will).

Lets talk about your Mom for a minute. You've told me she loves to fly with you, hate to burst your bubble but all Moms say that even if they are terrified, but lets assume for discussions sake that you are right. At first you might think a Stearman, with only two seats and a baggage compartment, might preent a problem for your Dads mission of taking your Mom, two dogs and an ice chest - but I don't believe it will be. I know your Mom supports your Dad completely, and has "indicated" she enjoys flying with you. Well I say get her involved in aviation as well, but not as a pilot or co-pilot (boring) but as a Wing Walker! Then she will enjoy those flights out to the ranch with visibility unencumbered by wings or fuselage. Plus there is the added bonus that she could repair things like minor tears in the fabric IN FLIGHT, no need for those unneccesary landings. And when your Dad is flying along those rivers your Mom will be in a much better position to tell your Dad if they can make it under those power lines then he will.

So with your Mom on the wings that frees up the front cockpit and baggage compartment for the dogs. This will significantly improve their level of obedience and unconditional love towards your Dad as they will now both try to gain favor.

And if all this wasn't enough your Dad, learning in his Stearman, will be the coolest student ever, period. Cubs and Wagons (okay Maules too) have great ramp appeal to pilots, but lets face it they are just another airplane to the general public. Stearmans have outstanding ramp presence and appeal to everyone. Oh, and I just so happen to have one for sale.

TomW wrote: If that 180 is yours, why not have pops take a couple lessons in it and get a feel for the heavy iron?

Tom, the thing is, flying is absolutely imperative to my livelihood and I have just about my entire life savings wrapped up in my 180. If he was to bend it up, then I would be screwed. If he learned to fly in something else and got proficient, I'd be more open to letting him give it a try, but only with me in the right seat

JamieG wrote: I am in the camp that its easier to learn what you need to straight up in the 180. You don't know any different and don't have to unlearn stuff you don't need. You might or might not take a little longer. Reading between the lines he has machinery experience which develops a sense of feel. Get the 180 and be done with it.

I'm with you on this perspective. My Dad is a heck of an operator when it comes to heavy machinery and has been doing it all his life, so he has a really good feel for machinery anyways. Thanks for your input.



Barnstormer, that is the worst sales pitch I have ever heard for a Stearman Besides your supposed to trade it to Jimmy so I can fly it when I'm down there!!!

Luke-

I've got a C-170 with an engine that has just been redone for sale (it was in the hangar at the Skywagon Roundup last month). If you interested in a trainer-compromise. I think the SuperCub or the C-180 might be too much of an airplane for an initial trainer. EZ has a good idea about limiting throttle/MP/Horsepower... but I would suggest that you think a little more about the training airplane issue and de-coupling it from the desired airplane issue.

I say that because ya'll are interested in taildraggers for utility.... lots of variables and complexities. Training airplanes are simple for a reason. Initial Pilot training can be done in complex airplanes, but it is all a matter of proficiency which equals lots of flying in a short period.

My nickel,
gunny

Is a tailwheel plane a must? or would a bigger tired C182 work (don't know how rough his landing area's are)? If he needs a tailwheel plane, getting initial training in a small more docile tailwheel plane, then transitioning to the C180 would be my choice, less confusing than changing the mindset from nosewheel to tailwheel in the initial learning stages. I think you answered your own question when you stated you did not want him learning in your C180 for fear of damaging it, the same could happen if he bought his own Skywagon to learn in.

Steve

Not to turn this into the usual get a 182 or get a Maule thread, BUT, I echo Steve's thoughts. Unless the ranch is just too damn rough to land in I think and old straight tail 182 with some 850's would be ideal. Price, performance, capacity, and learnability wise. Probably get into a real decent one for 2/3 the cost of the SC and 1/2 the cost of the 180. Those guys land those things in some pretty rough places from what I've seen pic's of. And does a new low time pilot really want to be landing a 180/SC in a place that is too rough for a big tired 182 anyway? A few decent looking ones in Barnstormers right now for $40K or less with STOL kits, bit tires etc. Hard to see how he could go wrong with one of those. And if money is an issue the insurance on the nose dragger will be a fraction of that on the taildragger.


Russ

He'll have a harder time reselling a 182 than any trainer. Regardless of choice, he should buy correctly and reselling won't be much of an issue. I tell you though. A well bought and sold J3 or champ trainer will cost him less than he will waste in gas, time and enjoyment trying to conduct primary training in a 180.

And the simple fact that you won't let him train in your bird speaks volumes of your confidence (and his potential instructors). in his ability to do so. You've got insurance on the thing. If your livlihood depends so much on the uptime of a 180 don't you need a second plane as a backup for unexpected downtime anyway (like a cub trainer)? Didn't your dad help change your diapers and deserve better?

Thanks again everyone for all the input...Per our mission, a tri-gear is undergunned for day-in/day-out operation at the ranch. They do fine for every once in awhile on our strips, but as far as holding up to the test of time (even short term), no go. We have been considering a bushed out 205/206 really hard and they are not off the table, but safety of a tri-gear out here is also a huge concern...we fly to survey the ranch often at low AGL, and the country is really pretty rough in the scenario of an engine out n I personally wouldnt fly a tri-gear for any amount of savings etc...Bushwheeled STOL tailwheel only IMO

Soyanarchisto wrote: And the simple fact that you won't let him train in your bird speaks volumes of your confidence (and his potential instructors). in his ability to do so. You've got insurance on the thing. If your livlihood depends so much on the uptime of a 180 don't you need a second plane as a backup for unexpected downtime anyway (like a cub trainer)? Didn't your dad help change your diapers and deserve better?

To put it in perspective, it takes on average four days boots on the ground to survey/accomplish what we can verify in 1-2 hours flyin. To get a part or tool we need to finish a job (an almost daily reality), it's a 2 hour drive one way if extremely lucky. If I actually want to have a life and get laid, 2 hour flight!!! So maybe you are not seeing the reality of my situation. I love my Dad and would do anything for him, and I'll sure as hell let him fly my plane once he gets competent for sure, but right now it is just me and him trying to run a 10 man show with just the 2 of us...If I can't fly, I am extremely inefficient and have no life...all work no play makes Luke a very dull boy, right???

Also, as soon as I get ahead of this crazy hole I've been in trying to get a good running motor, etc. I'll eventually buy a second beater plane as we need one bad. Every time a part on the 180 goes south I gotta get it done ASAP and dont have the ability to shop around, n it is killin my pocket book bro...Ranchers dont get rich quick unless they hit oil, n we ain't hittin no oil

RanchPilot told me a joke over the weekend about a rancher that won millions in the lottery. A reporter asked him what he was gonna do with all that money. Rancher said, "I dunno - guess I'll keep ranchin' till its all gone!" I'm just teasin' by the way... all in fun.

If you have the means, and already have a 180 in the family - seems a good to go with the 180hp experimental supercub. But I still think a cheaper J3C would make a better primary trainer and backup plane - a 85hp w/ 8", 26" or 29" wheels can likely go 90% of where that 180 can go - just slower on the way. Easy to buy, easy to sell - likely won't lose much if anything - and if you lose anything it would undoubtedly be offset by the expense of extra time/gas needed in the high perf 180.

Soy, I am pushin the Experimental J3 cub option pretty hard!!! I have offered to partner and buy him out when he's done with it...fingers crossed haha

What about shortfielders chubby cubby he's selling? That'd be a good one...

oops