My kids are getting close to flying age, and I like teaching them stuff. I never had a CFI but I’d like to get one. I have an airplane, looking for a place where I can knock out a CFI in a boot camp, immersion type program. Any suggestions?

The one hiccup that I can think of is that I have a Cessna 185, and I’m not sure how many schools I may be able to find with an instructor that is qualified in tailwheel, let alone a 185.

Any bootcamp will most likely happen in the programs aircraft, not your own.

I went to Blueline Aviation and had a great experience. It was really intense, but doable. I think it was 10 days…. You must arrive with all the exams completed.

I’d recommend…

I'll do the instruction. Fly it up to PATK this summer and we will knock it out in the big land.

asa wrote:...knock it out...

LOL. Knock it out?

At least what I experienced was a pretty big deal. After 10 long days, the oral/check ride was an intense 10 hr crucible... and that was with a super cool T6 fellow TW guy.

I went thru a class with 10 other guys, 2 of which washed out. We studied from 6am till 11 every day, and that was already coming to the course with a 95+ on the FOI, FIA, and CFI. It was exhilarating, but intense.

Maybe others have had different experiences, but that was mine...

My son did his CFI at Venture North Aviation outside of Duluth with their 5 day CFI course (and then another few days for his CFI-I). My youngest son did his Instrument at the same time at the same place (10 day course). Very good experience and I would recommend.

They did it in our 172 but Venture North also has new(er) Piper hardware that you can rent.

https://www.10dayifr.com/5-day-cfi-flight-instructor-course-n

Bigrenna wrote:

asa wrote:...knock it out...

LOL. Knock it out?

At least what I experienced was a pretty big deal. After 10 long days, the oral/check ride was an intense 10 hr crucible... and that was with a super cool T6 fellow TW guy.

I went thru a class with 10 other guys, 2 of which washed out. We studied from 6am till 11 every day, and that was already coming to the course with a 95+ on the FOI, FIA, and CFI. It was exhilarating, but intense.

Maybe others have had different experiences, but that was mine...

I stand by what I said. The flying is easy. It's all the other stuff that's time consuming and that can be done ahead of time and without a CFI that is 185 qualified.

Sounds about par for course these days. Well above 50% initial failure rate. Good luck.

Here is what I would be doing in prep for an accelerated CFI course:

1. Take the CFI and FOI written tests well in advance of the course work and checkride. They are good for 2 years and this will work toward preliminary preparation for the material. The FOI (Fundamentals of instruction) is particular dry, boring and not intuitive. It is more like a teaching credential. Honestly it sucks but is also sort of important. There will be a lot of questions on this material during the oral CFI initial checkride.

2. Find out from the flight school if they have a DPE who is comfortable giving a CFI-Initial in a tailwheel airplane/185.

3. Consider getting some local instruction from a CFI right now and improve your right seat flying. If you have never flown from the right seat it can be a steep learning curve - especially in a tailwheel. The muscle memory is opposite left seat flying and you have the parallax (site picture is different in the right seat). The wheel landings are particular difficult in a heavy airplane like the Skywagon because of the amount of forward elevator pressure needed in the right arm. It eventually gets natural but feels strange at first.

4. Approach the accelerated course with the attitude of finishing up what is likely several months of preparation. The CFI Initial is the hardest of all the ratings/certificates. High failure rate. Better to go in over prepared and confident. Although this is the best advice for any checkride.


Josh

wagonflyer wrote:My son did his CFI at Venture North Aviation outside of Duluth with their 5 day CFI course (and then another few days for his CFI-I). My youngest son did his Instrument at the same time at the same place (10 day course). Very good experience and I would recommend.

They did it in our 172 but Venture North also has new(er) Piper hardware that you can rent.

https://www.10dayifr.com/5-day-cfi-flight-instructor-course-n

This looks like what I'm after. Thanks.

48Stinson1083 wrote:Sounds about par for course these days. Well above 50% initial failure rate. Good luck.

Not sure what you're getting at...curious about that data as well. I know the CFI has a high failure rate, I had no idea it was that high.

It’s not a crash course

Tutor people, that’s the best learning

Know where to look stuff up

Know how to explain how to fly, or better yet your mistakes flying

This is one of the few things that you can do and should do 90% on your own


My initial CFI was with the FSDO, it was the ride I went into the most prepared, but also the ride I expecting to fail, I passed and it took me a minute realize I passed.

Okay, I'll throw something out there for consideration: I think the 185 MAY be the wrong airplane to introduce someone to flying.....

Why? Because the 185 is a sort of "busy" airplane on the runway, it's just complex enough to present challenges to newbies, and it requires a "firm hand" as opposed to a "light touch".

I have quite a few thousand hours in 185s, and thinking back to my initial flight training, it would NOT have gone well if I'd been training in a 185.....seriously.

So, here's what I'd consider: Buy a 150, or if you REALLY want them tailwheel trained from the git go, an older champ, like a 7AC or GC or so.... Train the kids in THAT airplane FIRST, get them up to speed on the basics in that plane, THEN transition them into the 185.

Frankly, I think the risk of overwhelming or frustrating an aspiring aviator is significantly increased by trying to do initial training in a 185.

I did my initial CFI locally, with a very good instructor who had prepared several initial CFIs. We did so in a 172, NOT my airplane. I did the practical test with an FAA Inspector (back then, FAA Alaska Region required ALL initial CFIs were certified by FAA, not DPE), and it was a daunting test.
My instructor had me prepare lesson plans for ALL portions of the syllabus, because the examiner could tell me at any point in the oral to "teach me Turns around a Point", or..... I had a BIG notebook with all these lesson plans ready to go. THere are sources on line for syllibi, by the way, now, not back then.

As others have said, get the writtens done in advance, but KEEP STUDYING that material....

And, by the way, if you were to buy a Champ, and teach those kids in it, your 185 insurance may be a LOT friendlier, and you might actually enjoy flying the little rascal.....I sure have when I had that opportunity to instruct in one.

MTV

mtv wrote:Okay, I'll throw something out there for consideration: I think the 185 MAY be the wrong airplane to introduce someone to flying.....

Why? Because the 185 is a sort of "busy" airplane on the runway, it's just complex enough to present challenges to newbies, and it requires a "firm hand" as opposed to a "light touch".

I have quite a few thousand hours in 185s, and thinking back to my initial flight training, it would NOT have gone well if I'd been training in a 185.....seriously.

So, here's what I'd consider: Buy a 150, or if you REALLY want them tailwheel trained from the git go, an older champ, like a 7AC or GC or so.... Train the kids in THAT airplane FIRST, get them up to speed on the basics in that plane, THEN transition them into the 185.

Frankly, I think the risk of overwhelming or frustrating an aspiring aviator is significantly increased by trying to do initial training in a 185.

I did my initial CFI locally, with a very good instructor who had prepared several initial CFIs. We did so in a 172, NOT my airplane. I did the practical test with an FAA Inspector (back then, FAA Alaska Region required ALL initial CFIs were certified by FAA, not DPE), and it was a daunting test.
My instructor had me prepare lesson plans for ALL portions of the syllabus, because the examiner could tell me at any point in the oral to "teach me Turns around a Point", or..... I had a BIG notebook with all these lesson plans ready to go. THere are sources on line for syllibi, by the way, now, not back then.

As others have said, get the writtens done in advance, but KEEP STUDYING that material....

And, by the way, if you were to buy a Champ, and teach those kids in it, your 185 insurance may be a LOT friendlier, and you might actually enjoy flying the little rascal.....I sure have when I had that opportunity to instruct in one.

MTV

As a CFI who also has a 185, I agree with MTV here, get them their PPL in a champ, citabria, cub, etc Frankly learning from the ground up in a 65hp example will teach them tons more than the 185
about energy management and winds

I would also wonder if insurance will even quote teaching a fresh student pilot in a 185, first solos etc

I'll bet IF an insurance underwriter would do so, the price will literally take your breath away....

MTV

You guys are answering a bunch of questions that the OP (aeropod (Tony)) didn’t ask. Tony is a high time pilot with gobs of 185 time who is interested in finally getting his CFI. Since he has a 185 he wants to do it in his airplane. That’s why he’s wondering if anyone in this group knows of a one of the CFI mills out there would let him do it in his airplane.

This thread now seems to have devolved into the typical ego war as to who has the last say on a certain topic, not what the OP was asking.

Bigrenna wrote:Any bootcamp will most likely happen in the programs aircraft, not your own.

I went to Blueline Aviation and had a great experience. It was really intense, but doable. I think it was 10 days…. You must arrive with all the exams completed.

I’d recommend…

mtv wrote:Okay, I'll throw something out there for consideration: I think the 185 MAY be the wrong airplane to introduce someone to flying.....

Why? Because the 185 is a sort of "busy" airplane on the runway, it's just complex enough to present challenges to newbies, and it requires a "firm hand" as opposed to a "light touch".

I have quite a few thousand hours in 185s, and thinking back to my initial flight training, it would NOT have gone well if I'd been training in a 185.....seriously.

So, here's what I'd consider: Buy a 150, or if you REALLY want them tailwheel trained from the git go, an older champ, like a 7AC or GC or so.... Train the kids in THAT airplane FIRST, get them up to speed on the basics in that plane, THEN transition them into the 185.

Frankly, I think the risk of overwhelming or frustrating an aspiring aviator is significantly increased by trying to do initial training in a 185.

I did my initial CFI locally, with a very good instructor who had prepared several initial CFIs. We did so in a 172, NOT my airplane. I did the practical test with an FAA Inspector (back then, FAA Alaska Region required ALL initial CFIs were certified by FAA, not DPE), and it was a daunting test.
My instructor had me prepare lesson plans for ALL portions of the syllabus, because the examiner could tell me at any point in the oral to "teach me Turns around a Point", or..... I had a BIG notebook with all these lesson plans ready to go. THere are sources on line for syllibi, by the way, now, not back then.

As others have said, get the writtens done in advance, but KEEP STUDYING that material....

And, by the way, if you were to buy a Champ, and teach those kids in it, your 185 insurance may be a LOT friendlier, and you might actually enjoy flying the little rascal.....I sure have when I had that opportunity to instruct in one.

MTV

Dog is my Copilot wrote:Here is what I would be doing in prep for an accelerated CFI course:

1. Take the CFI and FOI written tests well in advance of the course work and checkride. They are good for 2 years and this will work toward preliminary preparation for the material. The FOI (Fundamentals of instruction) is particular dry, boring and not intuitive. It is more like a teaching credential. Honestly it sucks but is also sort of important. There will be a lot of questions on this material during the oral CFI initial checkride.

2. Find out from the flight school if they have a DPE who is comfortable giving a CFI-Initial in a tailwheel airplane/185.

3. Consider getting some local instruction from a CFI right now and improve your right seat flying. If you have never flown from the right seat it can be a steep learning curve - especially in a tailwheel. The muscle memory is opposite left seat flying and you have the parallax (site picture is different in the right seat). The wheel landings are particular difficult in a heavy airplane like the Skywagon because of the amount of forward elevator pressure needed in the right arm. It eventually gets natural but feels strange at first.

4. Approach the accelerated course with the attitude of finishing up what is likely several months of preparation. The CFI Initial is the hardest of all the ratings/certificates. High failure rate. Better to go in over prepared and confident. Although this is the best advice for any checkride.


Josh

NineThreeKilo wrote:It’s not a crash course

Tutor people, that’s the best learning

Know where to look stuff up

Know how to explain how to fly, or better yet your mistakes flying

This is one of the few things that you can do and should do 90% on your own


My initial CFI was with the FSDO, it was the ride I went into the most prepared, but also the ride I expecting to fail, I passed and it took me a minute realize I passed.

mtv wrote:Okay, I'll throw something out there for consideration: I think the 185 MAY be the wrong airplane to introduce someone to flying.....

Why? Because the 185 is a sort of "busy" airplane on the runway, it's just complex enough to present challenges to newbies, and it requires a "firm hand" as opposed to a "light touch".

I have quite a few thousand hours in 185s, and thinking back to my initial flight training, it would NOT have gone well if I'd been training in a 185.....seriously.

So, here's what I'd consider: Buy a 150, or if you REALLY want them tailwheel trained from the git go, an older champ, like a 7AC or GC or so.... Train the kids in THAT airplane FIRST, get them up to speed on the basics in that plane, THEN transition them into the 185.

Frankly, I think the risk of overwhelming or frustrating an aspiring aviator is significantly increased by trying to do initial training in a 185.

I did my initial CFI locally, with a very good instructor who had prepared several initial CFIs. We did so in a 172, NOT my airplane. I did the practical test with an FAA Inspector (back then, FAA Alaska Region required ALL initial CFIs were certified by FAA, not DPE), and it was a daunting test.
My instructor had me prepare lesson plans for ALL portions of the syllabus, because the examiner could tell me at any point in the oral to "teach me Turns around a Point", or..... I had a BIG notebook with all these lesson plans ready to go. THere are sources on line for syllibi, by the way, now, not back then.

As others have said, get the writtens done in advance, but KEEP STUDYING that material....

And, by the way, if you were to buy a Champ, and teach those kids in it, your 185 insurance may be a LOT friendlier, and you might actually enjoy flying the little rascal.....I sure have when I had that opportunity to instruct in one.

MTV

NineThreeKilo wrote:

mtv wrote:Okay, I'll throw something out there for consideration: I think the 185 MAY be the wrong airplane to introduce someone to flying.....

Why? Because the 185 is a sort of "busy" airplane on the runway, it's just complex enough to present challenges to newbies, and it requires a "firm hand" as opposed to a "light touch".

I have quite a few thousand hours in 185s, and thinking back to my initial flight training, it would NOT have gone well if I'd been training in a 185.....seriously.

So, here's what I'd consider: Buy a 150, or if you REALLY want them tailwheel trained from the git go, an older champ, like a 7AC or GC or so.... Train the kids in THAT airplane FIRST, get them up to speed on the basics in that plane, THEN transition them into the 185.

Frankly, I think the risk of overwhelming or frustrating an aspiring aviator is significantly increased by trying to do initial training in a 185.

I did my initial CFI locally, with a very good instructor who had prepared several initial CFIs. We did so in a 172, NOT my airplane. I did the practical test with an FAA Inspector (back then, FAA Alaska Region required ALL initial CFIs were certified by FAA, not DPE), and it was a daunting test.
My instructor had me prepare lesson plans for ALL portions of the syllabus, because the examiner could tell me at any point in the oral to "teach me Turns around a Point", or..... I had a BIG notebook with all these lesson plans ready to go. THere are sources on line for syllibi, by the way, now, not back then.

As others have said, get the writtens done in advance, but KEEP STUDYING that material....

And, by the way, if you were to buy a Champ, and teach those kids in it, your 185 insurance may be a LOT friendlier, and you might actually enjoy flying the little rascal.....I sure have when I had that opportunity to instruct in one.

MTV

As a CFI who also has a 185, I agree with MTV here, get them their PPL in a champ, citabria, cub, etc Frankly learning from the ground up in a 65hp example will teach them tons more than the 185
about energy management and winds

I would also wonder if insurance will even quote teaching a fresh student pilot in a 185, first solos etc

mtv wrote:I'll bet IF an insurance underwriter would do so, the price will literally take your breath away....

MTV

That's a lot of words to say you don't know of a school that will help me get a CFI in a 185.

I don’t think anyone said that

Heck I could get you your CFI myself, all you need is a CFI who has the experience requirement for a initial CFI

Id just find a freelance CFI, most who freelance have been a CFI for at least 2yrs so they can check all the boxes.

For the flying part, which is minimal, get visualized flight maneuvers
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1644252236

You will also need the spin endorsement if you don’t already have it, some say this needs to be done by a 2yr CFI, anything legal to spin you can use


For your CFI training you can be PIC so that helps, though many higher time CFIs will want to be added named insured and/or have you sign a liability waiver (I do both),

Where things might have gotten off the path is when other thought you were going to be instructing new students in the 185

Frankly the CFI isn’t really something you go to school for as much as you teach yourself, you only need someone to sign you off, really not much in the way of flight hours or anything

I was offering advice from the perspective of a long time CFI, and as a CFI, has introduced a number of pilots of various experience to the 185. As one who aspires to be a CFI, that may be useful information......

In any casem, the price of that advice is precisely what you paid for it.....

MTV

wagonflyer wrote:My son did his CFI at Venture North Aviation outside of Duluth with their 5 day CFI course (and then another few days for his CFI-I). My youngest son did his Instrument at the same time at the same place (10 day course). Very good experience and I would recommend.

They did it in our 172 but Venture North also has new(er) Piper hardware that you can rent.

https://www.10dayifr.com/5-day-cfi-flight-instructor-course-n

This is where I did mine as well. Lesson plans, flight training, oral prep, and check ride all in under a week.
A couple guys had done training in their own planes while I was there too so I’d just call about the 185.

I wonder if it might not be a lot easier to just get the CFI in a 172 or whatever the flight school has.
Maybe it'd cost more, but is the money saved worth the hassle?

I think so. You'll need to demonstrate all landing ACS items, and heavier airplanes with high sink rates on the 180 Power-Off can be a challenge for sure. One recent Malibu owner crashed his with CFI practicing for CPL.

I'm working with a B36TC (heavy single for sure) owner working towards CPL and the 180 Power-Off is a lot of work to touchdown flawlessly within 200' of TD point. There are many points, common errors and other teaching point the FAA says you need to nail, and less is more in the certification world.