Hello,
I have the normal 6-pack of instruments and a KLX-135 Navcom w/gps in my pa-22. I don't want to spend a fortune but want a minimal IFR capability. What i have been looking at is the TKM michals MC60 nav converter and the MG200 glideslope reciever and then using the KLX 135 for VOR Loc input into the MC60.

Does anyone have any experience with TKM Michal units (they are TSO)

Another unit I looked at was the VAL AVIONICS NAV INS 429 WITH VOR/LOC/GS/MB but its not TSO'd. Although the web site states it is recommended for type certified aircraft (???)

Thanks
Dan

Narco used to sell a nav radio that was a stand-alone 3-1/8" round VOR head-- the Nav-122 as I recall. It had a glideslope & some versions had a marker beacon receiver built in too-- great if you need nav & ILS capabilities and have limited funds & panel space. Just googled one up for sale online at Bennett Avionics for $2100, but since narco went belly-up it might not be the greatest investment.
The VAL INS-429 sounds like a modern digital version of the same thing-- but doesn't all your radio gear have to be TSO'd if you need an IFR cert? The VAL website says that it "meets or exceeds TSO standards"-- is that the same thing?
They list a price of $2K-- seems pretty reasonable considering it's capabilities.

Yes, I looked at the VAL 429 and that does seem to be the way to go (I worry about getting a Narco 122 serviced)

More importantly...I spoke with Jim at Val Avionics twice and they told me something I did not know. I'd like other's feedback here too. He said that the VAL429 does NOT have to be TSO'd. He said he spoke with everyone at the FAA all the way to the Avaionics (AFF 300) folks in Oklahoma city and that FARs state the unit "must meet the requirements of" but does not have to be TSO'd for use in a certified aircraft. I thought that anything that went into the panel permanently had to be TSO'd but he said thats a myth. The Val guy said, for example, that the KS170B is not TSO'd and those show up in Cessnas all the time.

Could Jim be wrong?

Dan

dplunkt wrote:Yes, I looked at the VAL 429 and that does seem to be the way to go (I worry about getting a Narco 122 serviced)

More importantly...I spoke with Jim at Val Avionics twice and they told me something I did not know. I'd like other's feedback here too. He said that the VAL429 does NOT have to be TSO'd. He said he spoke with everyone at the FAA all the way to the Avaionics (AFF 300) folks in Oklahoma city and that FARs state the unit "must meet the requirements of" but does not have to be TSO'd for use in a certified aircraft. I thought that anything that went into the panel permanently had to be TSO'd but he said thats a myth. The Val guy said, for example, that the KS170B is not TSO'd and those show up in Cessnas all the time.

Could Jim be wrong?

Dan

No. Jim is not wrong. An aircraft radio does not need to be TSO'd to be installed in a certified aircraft. But, that's not really the question. A better question is; does a radio need to be TSO'd to be certified IFR? I dunno. Many experimentals operate in IMC in the system without using TSO'd radios. Can Center tell? Nope. (not yet anyway) I doubt you'll hear, "I'm sorry sir we cannot extend services until you get your aircraft certified IFR". Can you take training in your aircraft with non TSO'd radios? I dunno. You can get a fairly decent idea about service work on the Narco 122 from your local avionics shop. It does extend behind the panel a long ways.

EB

The radio shop in Alamosa services Narcos--had my second Mark 12B repaired (my local avionics shop sent it there) when I had the 430W installed, so that if need be, I can just pull the Mark 12B out of the panel and slip in the repaired one.

No personal experience with either Val or TKM. I have bought from Bennett, and they do a good job ferreting out the junk from the good stuff.

Cary

Emory Bored wrote:....An aircraft radio does not need to be TSO'd to be installed in a certified aircraft. But, that's not really the question. A better question is; does a radio need to be TSO'd to be certified IFR? I dunno. Many experimentals operate in IMC in the system without using TSO'd radios. Can Center tell? Nope...

I'm not an instrument pilot so I'm on unfamiliar ground here, but doesn't your airplane (certified ones anyway) have to have an "IFR cert" to be legal to fly IFR? I think that's where the non-TSO'd radio would becomes a problem.
Kinda like a flight review-- I know nobody checks.... UNTIL something happens. Then you better have all your i's crossed & t's dotted.

Ummmm, just a thought here: Do you REALLY want to use the terms "cheap" and "IFR" in the same sentence??

MTV

That's good Mike! My cat and duck are not TSO'd, but work pretty good enroute...not much good on the ILS though.

mtv wrote:Ummmm, just a thought here: Do you REALLY want to use the terms "cheap" and "IFR" in the same sentence??

MTV

MTV, we're talking aviation here; cheap is a relative term. I'm thinking $2000 for the VAL... while getting a used Garmin 430W with a decent indicater installed is ???? $10,000+. Heck, I fly a pa-22 which is a "cheap" airplane.

hotrod150 wrote:

Emory Bored wrote:....An aircraft radio does not need to be TSO'd to be installed in a certified aircraft. But, that's not really the question. A better question is; does a radio need to be TSO'd to be certified IFR? I dunno. Many experimentals operate in IMC in the system without using TSO'd radios. Can Center tell? Nope...

I'm not an instrument pilot so I'm on unfamiliar ground here, but doesn't your airplane (certified ones anyway) have to have an "IFR cert" to be legal to fly IFR? I think that's where the non-TSO'd radio would becomes a problem.
Kinda like a flight review-- I know nobody checks.... UNTIL something happens. Then you better have all your i's crossed & t's dotted.

Hotrod150, I've been trying to pin down the regs on that too. here's what I found from one avionics shop: "The IFR certification consist of testing the aircraft static system, transponder, and certifying the altimeter and encoder. The IFR certification is also required to be performed every two years. The altimeter and encoder must be removed from the aircraft to be recertified and thus the IFR certification normally requires three to four hours to complete. We request that you schedule IFR certifications one week in advance."

So the "must have" is a heated pitot, certified mode C transponder, certified altimeter and encoder. Other than that it's unclear or possibly not required.

Dan

Maybe a pro will chime in, but my impression is the TSO'd units are needed for commercial operations like air taxi, scheduled, and the big guys. I am pretty sure the private guy is legal with non - TSO units as long as it is installed with proper paperwork.

Any avionics shop should know for sure I would think?

My only personal TSO experience...a coupe years ago, I decided to replace the crappy com radios in my new to me airplane with one good one. I decided on an Icom A200. At that time, they mfr'd both a TSOd one and a non-TSO'd which was $100 cheaper. (sorry MTV-- I meant "more reasonably priced"). The IA who was gonna do the paperwork for me talked to his FAA maintenance inspector, and was told that if it was a TSO'd radio it was a non-major alteration and needed only the IA signoff-- but if it was a non-TSO'd radio, it needed a field approval with an FAA signoff on the 337. I spent the extra hundred bucks.

I am doing an "inexpensive" avionics upgrade with a new audio panel with intercom and marker, new transponder and encoder, King ky 97 for 2nd com. I'm not ready to pull the plug on an IFR GPS COM yet, so I purchased a Mac 1700 for $1000...it is a slide in replacement for the King KX 170 B which I have with VOR/ILS/Glideslope. It has digital flip/flop tuning and and is reported to be a reliable transceiver. Compared to the KX 155 or SL 30, it is an "inexpensive" upgrade. I'm really not familiar with this radio, yet, but when I get it operational I will report back. This might be another option for someone wanting to get IFR on a budget. Has anyone got any opinions? Ha,ha,ha, now that's a loaded subject!

dplunkt wrote:Hello,
I have the normal 6-pack of instruments and a KLX-135 Navcom w/gps in my pa-22. I don't want to spend a fortune but want a minimal IFR capability. What i have been looking at is the TKM michals MC60 nav converter and the MG200 glideslope reciever and then using the KLX 135 for VOR Loc input into the MC60.

Does anyone have any experience with TKM Michal units (they are TSO)

Another unit I looked at was the VAL AVIONICS NAV INS 429 WITH VOR/LOC/GS/MB but its not TSO'd. Although the web site states it is recommended for type certified aircraft (???)

Thanks
Dan

Dan take a look at the King KX-125's they have a VOR/Localizer built in and in my case I'm using two of them and the #1 is coupled to a King KI-214 LOC/GS. Between 2- KX-125's and the KI-214 I think I've got about $4k into them all eBay purchases
I've got to be the king of the cheap bastards here

I would scout the internet and call some of the dealers in the back of TAP and find a used KX-155/KI-209. The Silver Crown series were yesterdays premium units and are supported and built well.I did this for $2k, which is the price target mentioned above. VAL or Narco wouldn't have any value to me. A little research and patience goes a long way.

And yes your radio equipment must be TSO'd as is relates to being used for IFR work in a Certificated plane. A heated pitot is not required. There are a few exceptions like anything in Aviation.

A heated pitot is not required.

Agreed, but it's wise to have it, if you're going to fly in any IMC, or even in visible moisture. I was returning to Laramie in an Archer II on a SE charter some years ago. We were required to maintain VFR on SE charters, but we flew through some very light snow showers--vis probably 4 to 5 miles, and the non-heated pitot froze up. Although the landing was totally uneventful, that was the first time I'd landed that particular airplane without a visible operating A/S indicator. I wasn't particularly comfortable with that, so one of the "mods" to LRB while she was down for the new engine was a heated pitot. New ones are prohibitively expensive, but used ones abound and are relatively "cheap".

Cary

Cary wrote:

A heated pitot is not required.

Agreed, but it's wise to have it,
Cary

Agreed, but its not required

Its also wise to have boots, alcohol on the props and a windshield plate.

.....and a couple turbofans out on the wings, the name Boeing on the dataplate, and two professionals up front doing the driving.