I've seen several places mention that there should be no self-checkout at backcountry strips. All of the flying clubs around here require a CFI checkout to each backcountry/non-hard surface strip before the member is allowed to fly there solo. Obviously safety is top priority.

For instance, I've flown into Idaho City, Smith's Prairie, Garden Valley (east and west approaches), and Pine. I am pretty confident I could handle a light and early morning trip to Warm Springs, but don't want to be stupid about this either. On the other end of the spectrum, I also know me flying to Mile Hi would probably not end well and it would probably be wise to call Life-Flight in advance to let them know that I would be needing a trip home. I feel like with the resources we have like Fly Idaho, studying topography in Google Earth, satellite maps, and sites like shortfield.com, we can become reasonably familiar with strips that are fairly straight-forward and may not need a checkout at each and every strip... to paint with a broad brush maybe stips in Fly Idaho with a RHI of < 10 or 15 or so all seem to be pretty honest approaches and departures.

Of course I realize the point is safety and not balling up airplanes or people and I completely understand this. However, any pilot with just a bit of skill and a healthy understanding of DA should be easily able to fly into Smith's Prairie or Smiley Creek without prior checkout, right? As someone who is just getting started flying in to the backcountry airports, I am curious about your personal approach to tackling a new strip or area, and when you deem a checkout at a new strip necessary.

I always get local knowledge from folks ... Sea, land and snow airstrips can be very dangerous. To much knowledge for me has not been an issue in backcountry flying . Call, write, drive, webcams, ForeFlight ... I do it all! I will drive to some places before ANY OPERATIONS but it depends on many factors. To long to type on an iPAD. One finger typing is hard work! A check ride may be needed in some really hairy strips. I would consider it sometimes.

I'd say get comforatable with the ones you know and have been to a lot. Then expand to others that are equally as hard and improve your skills. Warms springs is a real nice strip and if you land to the east and takeoff west it should be no problem. I always study google earth, and shortfield or look at videos to help me. Or find a friend that will go with you in his plane and follow him in, or let him show you how and then you follow him in. There are a lot of ways, just get comfy with the best one for you!

I should wait and see just what the replies are before saying anything. But being old and foolish, I won't!
If you are a PIC and you go to take a look at a strip, it is up to you whether you land or not.
If your talking rental aircraft, I guess that is up to the Owner.
If it is yours, I would think that if you are comfortable and have the experience, you can make the decision.
If you are not, then you need the training and experience to make the decision.
Just because Mr. Back Country Check Out Pilot takes you in there today and says, YEP your good!!
Does not make it so tomorrow!!
It all comes down to YOU.

M6RV6 wrote:I should wait and see just what the replies are before saying anything. But being old and foolish, I won't!
If you are a PIC and you go to take a look at a strip, it is up to you whether you land or not.
If your talking rental aircraft, I guess that is up to the Owner.
If it is yours, I would think that if you are comfortable and have the experience, you can make the decision.
If you are not, then you need the training and experience to make the decision.
Just because Mr. Back Country Check Out Pilot takes you in there today and says, YEP your good!!
Does not make it so tomorrow!!
It all comes down to YOU.

I'd agree to that!

Go with what you are comfortable with. I've flown in and out of almost every backcountry strip in Idaho including three of the big creek four and I've never had instruction at any of them. In fact I've never had any mountain flying instruction. I have read mountain flying books and researched strips online and in the fly-Idaho book as well as talked to experienced pilots that have been into these places. I'm not saying everyone should do this but if you know your own abilities and know your airplane then there's nothing wrong with landing these strips if you feel comfortable with it. Having an experienced mountain flying instructor go with you is never a bad idea but not even that will always keep you safe. Just last week I flew over a wrecked Husky at Dewey Moore. The pilot was receiving instruction from a well known mountain flying outfit at the time they wrecked at the end of the runway.

And if a cylinder goes flat at 8000' DA you will descend in most 4 bangers. Maintenance is paramount, get good maintenance advice too.

I fly a 4 cylinder amphibian and any decrease in HP from plugs, mags compression is going show up real quick compared to an Aztec with 12 cylinders and 24 spark plugs at sea level airports. I can fly an Aztec all day and can not realize a few plugs are fouled. Until another run up.

Everything in this kind of flying is dependent on competence, and once you have the basic skills for evaluating strips and terrain from the air, the different strips shouldn't require specific training. Specific knowledge...yes. That part is even in the FAR (91.103)

In the mountain flying courses they teach you a skill set, a bag of tricks, some cautionary tactics. When trained and experienced, you theoretically should be able to evaluate a strip or LZ from the air and decide yes/no, and your approach and departure before ever attempting to land. The consequences of failure can be severe, or expensive. There's a reason those strips in Galen's book have difficulty ratings.

This isn't the thread to get into those specifics, but from my point of view, exploration and adventure is the whole point. There's nothing like dropping into a new-to-you strip for the first time using only your own judgement and experience to guide you-- that's the spirit of backcountry flying.

Zzz wrote:Everything in this kind of flying is dependent on competence, and once you have the basic skills for evaluating strips and terrain from the air, the different strips shouldn't require specific training. Specific knowledge...yes. That part is even in the FAR (91.103)

In the mountain flying courses they teach you a skill set, a bag of tricks, some cautionary tactics. When trained and experienced, you theoretically should be able to evaluate a strip or LZ from the air and decide yes/no, and your approach and departure before ever attempting to land. The consequences of failure can be severe, or expensive. There's a reason those strips in Galen's book have difficulty ratings.

This isn't the thread to get into those specifics, but from my point of view, exploration and adventure is the whole point. There's nothing like dropping into a new-to-you strip for the first time using only your own judgement and experience to guide you-- that's the spirit of backcountry flying.

You nailed it again, Z! I couldn't agree more.

I've never had mountain specific training either...just happened to learn during my PPL in some mountainous areas, including my very first logged instruction out of the Big Creek drainage. I have been to all but a few of the strips in mostly low powered aircraft while in high school, and never really felt like things were particularly shaky. Ive run into a lot of folks with similar backgrounds doing just fine.

Like Z said, it really is quite the thrill to get into a new strip, and even more so to really explore the area on foot. There really is no magic to the basic skills needed to get in and out safely from most of them, and the list of really important things to consider is pretty short after a while.

On the other hand, I know a handful of folks who pursued mtn training, and it really opened up some doors for them confidence-wise. It makes their frequent trips into the backcountry less stressful and safer in heir minds, and that is a big win in anyone's book. Most folks are content to look at the strips and consider the idea of exploring them sort of something other people are crazy enough to do, while a few people have the curiosity and motivation to look further and learn that it is no big deal and a worthy pursuit.

Zzz wrote: but from my point of view, exploration and adventure is the whole point. There's nothing like dropping into a new-to-you strip for the first time using only your own judgement and experience to guide you-- that's the spirit of backcountry flying.

I'm fairly sure that there aren't too many instructors in this area that has been to all the strips I've flown into.
I love plugging the coordinates of a strip I've never flown to into the GPS and then adding it to my "been there" list.
Last weekend I hit 3 new to me strips in one 2 hour flight.
If you can't drop into a known backcountry strip without instruction, then it will be really stressful to put it down unplanned off strip in an emergency.
As others have said, I always check out Shortfield, Utah Backcountry , or at the very least Google Earth.
The trick is to know your limitations and not let your ego write checks your brain can't cash.
I've bailed on final a couple of times because it just didn't look right. I used to blame it on my plane but now with the S-7, I can't.

Another great thread with great information! Just the fact that you posted this and are thinking about it and not being cocky enough to think you can just cruise into any strip because you've been to one or two like it is half the battle. In addition to everything already posted I'll throw out what worked well for me. Having someone like Emmet,Steve Henry or Pops Dory off your wing talking you through an approach to someplace is invaluable. Just little tid bits of information once you are there and looking at something can make all the difference in a successful approach and landing. Having 100% knowledge and faith in your equipment really helps too.

AvidFlyer wrote: Having 100% knowledge and faith in your equipment really helps too.

Having AKB tires (AKA, Fat Tires) can be useful, too.

Confidence is a funny thing. I like to think I'm a pretty good stick, but I don't think my confidence is up to my skill level. I've seen and heard about pilots who came really close to fouling up big time, but don't seem to realize it. I've seen some folks who were definitely not up to the challenge of a particular place, but their over-abundance of confidence caused them to charge in and prang their airplane. I prefer to error on the side of caution- I miss out on some good places, but I'm still alive and unbent as is my airplane.
Instruction: some folks think they can get a basic airplane checkout and they're ready for anything. Others suggest "get an instructor" when someone else talks about trying a 5 mph slower approach speed. Somewhere between those two extremes is about right IMHO.

hotrod150 wrote:Confidence is a funny thing. I like to think I'm a pretty good stick, but I don't think my confidence is up to my skill level. I've seen and heard about pilots who came really close to fouling up big time, but don't seem to realize it. I've seen some folks who were definitely not up to the challenge of a particular place, but their over-abundance of confidence caused them to charge in and prang their airplane. I prefer to error on the side of caution- I miss out on some good places, but I'm still alive and unbent as is my airplane.
Instruction: some folks think they can get a basic airplane checkout and they're ready for anything. Others suggest "get an instructor" when someone else talks about trying a 5 mph slower approach speed. Somewhere between those two extremes is about right IMHO.

Thank you, saved me a bunch of one finger typing!

++++ 1 !

As I've posted before on an off airport thread, there are essentially two skill sets when you're going off airport. While the discussion here is primarily directed at airports in the back country, the concepts still apply to some great degree.

The two skill sets are airplane handling and site evaluation. Very different skill sets and very different skills. One is all about eye/hand coordination and knowing your airplane, the other is all about judgement. There is some cross over, obviously, but...

Airplane handling you can learn and practice pretty much anywhere, even at a huge airport. Learn to touch down precisely where you intend to, every time, at the intended touch down speed. EVERY time, no exceptions. "Freak gust of wind"??? Sorry, no such thing...you should have seen it coming. On the intended touchdown spot, on speed, EVERY approach.

Once you're there, in a variety of situations and conditions (wind, no wind, crosswind, hot, cool, busy, not busy, etc) THEN you're ready to start learning to evaluate landing spots. The back country strips are all well known and explored. Buy one of Galen Hanselmans books...best few dollars you'll ever spend in the Idaho/Montana back country. Oh, and READ it, too, by the way....it won't do you much good if it's stuck in a seat pocket, and never opened.

One place where some instruction DOES make a lot of sense is if you've never flown much in the mountains. Find a good mountain flying instructor and learn what you can about air flow patterns, diurnal patterns, winds, etc.

Now, Take that basic landing skill out into the back country. If you like, go to one or two back country strips with an instructor the first time, as a confidence builder, and a learning opportunity. We can ALL learn something when it comes to aviation, even the most experienced of us.

Apply the precision you've developed in landing the airplane and managing it around the airport along with your new found knowledge and understanding of mountain air currents, and start working those strips, starting with the least challenging first, based on Hanselman's scale of difficulty, and work your way to the more difficult.

It's not rocket science, and as noted earlier, it's not for everyone. Some folks may feel more comfortable flying to each strip with an instructor first. Good for them, because there are also those folks out there who SHOULD fly with an instructor to every strip, but don't.....

One size doesn't fit everyone. A good bit of caution is wise. An understanding of weather and winds in the mountains is essential as well. Most of all, have fun at this. If you're in constant fear of stacking your airplane up in a smoking heap, go get some instruction from a COMPETENT instructor. That's in caps for a reason, by the way. THere are instructors out there who will TELL you they are God's gift to mountain flying. Many of those aren't.

Again, this should be fun and challenging.

MTV

Logistics play a major part of my backcountry flying. Food, water, fuel, time of year and safety equipment is surprisingly different on many trips. Who is going to come and get me if I crash, get sick, or even lost? Am I friends with these people? Or am I just hoping that there will be a bunch of guys with a helicopter or truck to pick up my mistake?

If I crash I want people who know me, to help me and to preferably assist, than let's just say who ever wants to play salavage rights in a screwed up situation. This only works close to home. But, if I travel, knowing who has commercial or government resources is important for a safe trip. Do not leave home on a dangerous trip without good home work on all issues.

Test your satphone, radio and safety gear occasionally. It is fun to pop an old life raft or vest and play in the water sometimes. Buy new gear after!

Thanks all, this is a good discussion and helps validate my thinking as well. Going from the renting world where rules are stringent and freedom is limited to the owning world where I have all the rope to hang myself if I so choose is a great excersize in judgement. Sounds like most of you kind of think along the same lines as I do, keep confidence in check, be realistic, gain experience gradually, be safe out there, all while having fun exploring and building on both skill and judgement over time.

AvidFlyer wrote:Another great thread with great information! Just the fact that you posted this and are thinking about it and not being cocky enough to think you can just cruise into any strip because you've been to one or two like it is half the battle. In addition to everything already posted I'll throw out what worked well for me. Having someone like Emmet,Steve Henry or Pops Dory off your wing talking you through an approach to someplace is invaluable. Just little tid bits of information once you are there and looking at something can make all the difference in a successful approach and landing. Having 100% knowledge and faith in your equipment really helps too.

That's a great way to learn a new strip. I've followed others into several strips that I didn't feel comfortable doing on my own.
Good way to visualize the approach and get an instant pirep on the winds and strip conditions. Doing it in a group gives you the experience of doing it solo but with a whole bunch of real-time information.

I dont fly in the mountains with high DA.
But been a new pilot 3 years ago I had 58 hrs and a Cessna 182 to explore every strip in Costa Rica.
I asked pilots before going and started going to the easier ones just by mself.
Then the harder ones 4 of them I flew near them and drove to check them.
Another I went with a guy in his plane.

Those strips are about 1,200ft with trees and obstacles, not too small for backcountry standards, but no one here gives bush pilot training so I studied,aked a lot (these forums too) read a lot and trained a LOT.
Even went to a long grass strip with a measure tape to measure my landings.

I just wanted to be sure I will make those strips instead of approaching them all nervous and sacred, I had lots of fun

Then I went to all of those by myself.
Study them and be sure 100% you can make it.