porterjet wrote:There is a taildragger Grumman for sale on Barnstormers. Forget if it is a Tiger or Cougar.

It's a Yankee...kind of neat.... http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_ ... ankee.html

Oldtech,

I thought I would mention to you that the Annual Cherokee fly in is to be combined with the Arlington air show this year and it sounds like it will be a great show.

The Arlington show is already a great show, I haven't missed one for 5 or 6 years. My bride knows to plan around the first part of July. It would take alot to get me to skip EAA North West.

My brother tells me that the Cherokee group will be putting on dinners, breakfast, a poker run, and multiple airplanes will be getting Stcs installed at the show. He mentioned a power flow install and speed mods. I am hoping theyll tell us the before and after numbers on those. I am pretty excited!

If you make it look us up, we are always on the front row(closest to the runway). Our group usually consist of a couple Pa28s, a Pa24, a Bonanza and a 170.

My brother just finished a 5 Year complete resto on a Pa28 with quite a few mods installed. It isn't painted yet, but other than that it is just like new. PM for his number if you'd like, he's another person that could answer some of your questions, and of course he enjoys aircraft shop talk.

I personally prefer low wings, but I still have to go sit under the 170 guys wings at the show, as you know, thats where all the friends are sitting.

Brian - Steve's Aircraft wrote:Customer of mine HAD the Power Flow exhaust system on his Cherokee...According to him, it never did what they advertised anyway.

That's the trouble with trying to get a straight report on some of these mods-- after a guy spends a couple grand on something, he's naturally pretty hesitant to admit that it doesn't work as advertised.

Eric

Tadpole wrote:

porterjet wrote:There is a taildragger Grumman for sale on Barnstormers. Forget if it is a Tiger or Cougar.

It's a Yankee...kind of neat.... http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_ ... ankee.html

Two good friends of mine own similar 150-horse Yankee taildraggers-- very fast, and quite sporty to fly. Not quite up to RV-6 standards, but close, and cheaper to buy or build. Pretty twitchy handling when landing and esp when taking off, though.
Re: Cherokee mods, Art Matson/AMR&D in Illinois has several STC's for boosting performance. www.pipermods.com Has good prices on new Sensenich props with his tip mod also.

Eric

hotrod150 wrote:

Brian - Steve's Aircraft wrote:Customer of mine HAD the Power Flow exhaust system on his Cherokee...According to him, it never did what they advertised anyway.

That's the trouble with trying to get a straight report on some of these mods-- after a guy spends a couple grand on something, he's naturally pretty hesitant to admit that it doesn't work as advertised.

Eric

Bingo. You'll notice you don't see any Mooney, 210, Bonanza, Colombia, etc, with droop wingtips. If you spend any time at all with these people you'll soon realize that if they could get 3 knots from a set of wingtips(or anything else) every one would have a set. And any speed mod has a greater effect on planes that go faster in the first place. I have a set of VG's now and I put them on the 182 I used to have. They do lower stall a little as well as reduce cruise speed by about 5 knots but I noticed nothing in handling on either plane. But it's not hard to find a 50 hour a year pilot rave about the changes in any of these things.

Bonanza Man wrote:

hotrod150 wrote:

Brian - Steve's Aircraft wrote:Customer of mine HAD the Power Flow exhaust system on his Cherokee...According to him, it never did what they advertised anyway.

That's the trouble with trying to get a straight report on some of these mods-- after a guy spends a couple grand on something, he's naturally pretty hesitant to admit that it doesn't work as advertised.

Eric

Bingo. You'll notice you don't see any Mooney, 210, Bonanza, Colombia, etc, with droop wingtips. If you spend any time at all with these people you'll soon realize that if they could get 3 knots from a set of wingtips(or anything else) every one would have a set. And any speed mod has a greater effect on planes that go faster in the first place. I have a set of VG's now and I put them on the 182 I used to have. They do lower stall a little as well as reduce cruise speed by about 5 knots but I noticed nothing in handling on either plane. But it's not hard to find a 50 hour a year pilot rave about the changes in any of these things.

Lets see you lowered your stall speed, and reduced your cruise speed but didn't notice anything on handling....what did you expect I have put those on a 210, 182,150, 310, Baron, PA-18, Scout, and a Commander and have yet to see a 5 knot cruise penalty.

We have never seen a cruise penalty with VG's either. VG's really help with slow speed aileron response flying heavy at altitude. And on the short wing PA-22/20 Pacers, that is where they need the help the most.

Brian.

hotrod150 wrote:

Brian - Steve's Aircraft wrote:Customer of mine HAD the Power Flow exhaust system on his Cherokee...According to him, it never did what they advertised anyway.

That's the trouble with trying to get a straight report on some of these mods-- after a guy spends a couple grand on something, he's naturally pretty hesitant to admit that it doesn't work as advertised.

Eric

I've had 3 different aircraft that I installed the powerflow on. I did extensive testing before and after, and can definitely say that there is a performance gain.
I've also done extensive FAA/TC flight testing for VG's, wing extensions, and wingtips, and have all the documented data on the performance gains, and dynamic/static stability improvements.

Had a '59 Comanche we put Metco-Aire wingtips on, it was a bonus. Different wing than the Cherokee, so I don't know about any benefit there.

I guess companies must spend millions on R&D and product liability so the FAA can approve those aftermarket mods that don't work.

gb

Brian - Steve's Aircraft wrote:We have never seen a cruise penalty with VG's either. VG's really help with slow speed aileron response flying heavy at altitude. And on the short wing PA-22/20 Pacers, that is where they need the help the most.

Brian.

If you don't see a cruise penalty then you installed them wrong. Simple as that. You put a measurable amount of drag on the airframe it's pretty easy to calculate the loss of speed. It's only going to be a knot or two on something slow, 100-120 knots TAS or so. A guy I met at Meadow Creek is from California and flies a Harmon Rocket, he and his wife are in Montana and Idaho every year. If you spend any time thee you'll come across them. He says he lost 17 knots, but he's starting at around 230 knots and has a more critical airfoil. There's no free lunch.

What we've learned so far on this thread:

Droop tips don't work.
Power Flow exhaust is possibly a waste of money.
Brian's Pacers don't cruise slower with VG's because he doesn't know how to put them on.
oldtech should get a tailwheel for his Cherokee.
Mr. Scout runs the hell out of his IO360

I love this site.



gb

Bonanza Man wrote:

Brian - Steve's Aircraft wrote:We have never seen a cruise penalty with VG's either. VG's really help with slow speed aileron response flying heavy at altitude. And on the short wing PA-22/20 Pacers, that is where they need the help the most.

Brian.

If you don't see a cruise penalty then you installed them wrong. Simple as that. You put a measurable amount of drag on the airframe it's pretty easy to calculate the loss of speed. It's only going to be a knot or two on something slow, 100-120 knots TAS or so. A guy I met at Meadow Creek is from California and flies a Harmon Rocket, he and his wife are in Montana and Idaho every year. If you spend any time thee you'll come across them. He says he lost 17 knots, but he's starting at around 230 knots and has a more critical airfoil. There's no free lunch.

Hmmmm, I think you've got it wrong bonanza man,
If you have lost speed with vg's, then on of two things is wrong with your installation; either you have the vg's too far forward on the wing, or they are installed in the correct spot, but are too tall. Both of these cases will cause a speed loss because the vg is sticking into ambient air.
Vg's installed in this manner will also collect ALOT of ice, yet when installed correctly, will not.

If you are flying a bonanza with vg's, IMO they should be about 1/4" tall, and roughly 8-10" back from the leading edge, of course the stc will give exact positioning.

side slip wrote:Hmmmm, I think you've got it wrong bonanza man,
If you have lost speed with vg's, then on of two things is wrong with your installation; either you have the vg's too far forward on the wing, or they are installed in the correct spot, but are too tall. Both of these cases will cause a speed loss because the vg is sticking into ambient air.
Vg's installed in this manner will also collect ALOT of ice, yet when installed correctly, will not.

If you are flying a bonanza with vg's, IMO they should be about 1/4" tall, and roughly 8-10" back from the leading edge, of course the stc will give exact positioning.

If that were true you could set a VG out on the wing after you leveled off and it wouldn't blow away. Try it yourself. Tape a small length of yarn on the wing where the VG sits. If the relative wind doesn't hit it it will flop around.

Bonanza Man wrote:If you don't see a cruise penalty then you installed them wrong. Simple as that. There's no free lunch.

Let me see. What you are saying is that the last....O let me think....12 airplanes that I have personally installed VG's on have been done incorrectly..????

yes, I admit that the fastest airplane I have worked on with VG's installed is a 182...and if a the guy wants to leave the throttle in the dash he 'might' see a slight 1 to 2 MPH speed reduction. That equals to maybe an extra half hour on a 1000 mile trip. And yes, if you fly something in the 200 + range you would see a decline in top speed.....but we are not talking high speed toys for the rich guys......we are talking Piper Cherokee here, and a clean PA-28-180 might cruise around 140 or so on a good day.

Also, to blatantly state that I installed them wrong is a little harsh......I am an A&P that has been tinkering on airplanes since I was a teenager...My dad has been in the business for over 40 years....I know how to read directions and have done my share of modifications and design work...so I think I just "Might" know a little about these things.....

O and yes, there is no free lunch as you say....but there are plenty of people who are willing to trade 5 minutes of travel for the added safety of a better handling machine when they are "down and dirty" trying to get into that 1000 foot high altitude strip.....

Brian.

Here it is, Moved from a good discussion to a pissing contest!!!!!!
I'll add my 2 cents
I'm the one that had the BASTARD Bonanza with a Lycoming in it! The one with a 2000 TBO
It really made a good airplane, Why is the 550 such a good upgrade? Because it got rid of the 520 Cont.
My S model Machen would push right past redline at sea level straight and level! I flew to AK. one time with the guys from Beech, they were taking a brand new B36 to the show in Anchorage. My old Bastard would run 10 KTs faster then there $400,000 new airplane would
When I put the VG's on it, it would still do that, Granted at cruise settings below 18,000" I lost 1-2 kts.
But at 23,000' where I could use that turbo and go WOT I lost absolutely no speed!(280KTS Indicated, I traveled many times at over 300 TA)
I traded that Bonanza for a Baron 56TC!! It was Known Ice. Now the Thunder Chicken is a hellofa aircraft! A B55 with Duke engines TIO541 Lyc. 380 HP on each wing, it was actually the only twin besides an Aerostar that would go faster than the Bonanza! Only problem was I couldn't fit in an Aerostar or I would have looked at one of them harder!
I had no loss of airspeed that I could determine on the 56TC.
! did quite a bit of testing when I installed on both.
The Main thing I put VG"S on anything is to have the control at the bottom end of the envelope, and if it drops the stol 5 mph then if the whole world comes to an end and I have to park the aircraft in the trees or bushes I'm hoping that the $2000 I spent to put the VG's on will be MONEY WELL SPENT!!
OK I'm done ranting or pissing what ever, Oh by the way If I can put VG's on an aircraft, they go on it, My RV6 did not suffer at all, and you can't believe how slow and how tight a loop you can do with it!!!
GT

Brian - Steve's Aircraft wrote:

Bonanza Man wrote:If you don't see a cruise penalty then you installed them wrong. Simple as that. There's no free lunch.

Let me see. What you are saying is that the last....O let me think....12 airplanes that I have personally installed VG's on have been done incorrectly..???? .......Brian.

You both put them on wrong-- they go on the bottom of the wing, for slower more controllable inverted flight. I thought everyone knew that!

hotrod150 wrote:

Brian - Steve's Aircraft wrote:

Bonanza Man wrote:If you don't see a cruise penalty then you installed them wrong. Simple as that. There's no free lunch.

Let me see. What you are saying is that the last....O let me think....12 airplanes that I have personally installed VG's on have been done incorrectly..???? .......Brian.

You both put them on wrong-- they go on the bottom of the wing, for slower more controllable inverted flight. I thought everyone knew that!

I bet that would make my annual checkride easier, especially the inverted, engine out, ADF circle to land with a missed approach.

Well it's always fun to see where these threads lead. I hope to go flyin the Cherokee this weekend and wring it out. I need a baseline anyway.
Our local AME is a big fan of vg's, so I expect that's the way to go. I have an 1800 foot strip with a fence at each end and haven't hung anything in the fence yet in 35 years!

Do those those hershey-bar-wing Cherokees have the same airfoil as a Cub? if so, it oughta do just fine. That airfoil seems to respond well to VG's too. Prop pitch makes a difference for STOL op's-- seems like a lot of people pitch them up too much in a quest for more speed.

Eric

Have fun with your new plane! Even bone stock, you should have no problems at all operating out of an 1800 ft strip.