Hi Guys

I have just recently installed a set of Atlee-Dodge folding jump seats in the back of my C-182B. I have not used them yet but will certainly this summer. The GF has several grand children ranging in ages from 2 y/o on up. What are the legal requirements for carrying young children in my airplane. Does an automotive car seat strapped in work? something different? I have seen all the photos of many different configurations.
What is legal? What is safe? and what works best? Thanks, this kid thing is new to me and I can not find an operations manual for them.

Thanks- Dave

Legally anyone over the age of 2 needs a seat belt. Under the age of 2 they can be held by someone but I wouldn’t recommend that. I use car seats strapped in with the seat belt in my 180 for my 2 and 4 year old. The car seats aren’t required though. I also hook the tether at the top of the car seat to a tie down ring installed in the top of the baggage compartment.

I do the same as Rob with my 3 year old and 7 month old.

A friend gave me one of these...


Rob pretty much covered it. I preferred to keep them in a car seat with shoulder restraints as long as possible. My oldest was 4 when I could no longer put her in a forward facing car seat and had to switch to a booster without shoulder restraints. I hated to do it because I felt she was too exposed.

I'm a delinquent parent. In my defence I grew up in cars without any seatbelt at all. So my kids in airplanes always had just a seatbelt, never a carseat. Hell, I even see today's parents trying to drag a carseat onto an airline. I didn't fly them until they were old enough to wear a seatbelt and headset -didn't want to permanently damage their hearing at that early an age. Not that delinquent.

I could have put them into fireproof coveralls and put a tiny helmet on them too.

DBI, one more thing to think about... Your 182 should have nut plates installed above the baggage compartment for rear seat shoulder harnesses . My 170 did and so does my 180. As soon as my kids outgrow the car seats they are in now I’m going to install some fixed shoulder harnesses for the rear seats.

robw56 wrote:DBI, one more thing to think about... Your 182 should have nut plates installed above the baggage compartment for rear seat shoulder harnesses . My 170 did and so does my 180. As soon as my kids outgrow the car seats they are in now I’m going to install some fixed shoulder harnesses for the rear seats.

I feel the same way and am installing fixed harness in my Bearhawk. I didn’t mention it before because I didn’t know it was an option in a Cessna.

whee » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:11 am

robw56 wrote:
DBI, one more thing to think about... Your 182 should have nut plates installed above the baggage compartment for rear seat shoulder harnesses . My 170 did and so does my 180. As soon as my kids outgrow the car seats they are in now I’m going to install some fixed shoulder harnesses for the rear seats.



I feel the same way and am installing fixed harness in my Bearhawk. I didn’t mention it before because I didn’t know it was an option in a Cessna.

Good info Rob and Whee, Thanks I will check it out.

Child seats are not required, however if you use them they must be FAA approved for air travel (per my understanding). I've never heard of someone being ramp checked on a Graco chair before but who knows.

@DBI

Whenever I fly with my nephew (4 years old), I put him in a carseat in the back of the plane. This particular carseat attaches using the regular lap belt and shoulder harness. So far, it has worked beautifully in both a Cessna 172 and a PA-28-160. In my opinion, I don't feel it is wholly necessary as long as the child is wearing the proper belts, but its my sisters rule for my nephew to be allowed to fly (her kid, her rules...) Hope this helps!

-Joe

The car seat we bought for everyday car use for my daughters is a pretty beefy unit. It was the top rated convertible at the time, the Britax something or other. It hefted that thing once and thought "this isn't for airplanes."

So I found the lightest weight one I could, called the Cosco Scenera Next; not Costco like the big box store, rather the tee-less version. It is super light! And I don't feel the safety is compromised much. The thing that makes the other one heavy is the articulating base that allows cant adjustment.

You do have to face them forward even for younger toddlers, before the recommended forward facing age, but not much choice there. It's sized for toddlers, but the next step up in kid size is a booster-style seat. I haven't yet looked for lightweight versions of those yet. It has the anchor strap that you can easily run over the seatback and down to the anchor in the floor of a Cessna like Robw56 is talking about.



I'd advise no front seat for small children. Hopefully only a few of you recall the midair at Johnson Creek in 2013 where the 2 year old died from blunt force trauma. I don't remember exact specifics, but he was in the front seat and I think that was a contributing factor.

In 2013 I removed an 18 month old toddler from the wreckage after a mid-air on short final at Johnson Creek. I don't think too many days go by that I don't think of him. He was right seat, in some type of booster with a shoulder harness. He had slipped right through and hit the panel. Serious head trauma. He may have left this world that day, but he will never me. I don't know the answer to your question. There really isn't a safe way to transport kids in a small aircraft IMHO. I would suggest the back seat and a good car seat as a minimum. Flying with kids is just a blast. To share what we love so much with them is almost magical. All I can say is do everything you can t keep them as safe as possible if you decide to take them with you.

Brent

I started flying my kids back in 1973, when the older was 8 and the younger 4. On Angel Flights, I've flown kids as young as 2. You'd be surprised at how many mommies think it's OK to strap kiddos into the same belt as they're in. I manage to disabuse them of that notion by telling them that if we have to stop suddenly (never say "crash"), that belt will cut their kid in two, because mommy's weight will be pushing the kid. Then they want to just hold the kid in their laps, and I remind them that a sudden stop will make the kid weigh 10-15 times what the kid weighs right now--a 30 pound kid suddenly becomes 300 to 450 lbs, and "can you hold that much weight?"

Once we get past all that, kids are a delight to fly with. Most of them really enjoy it; some turn green, but that's true of adults, too.

Cary

Backseat is a must for any child that doesn’t fit properly in the front seat shoulder harnesses (you have shoulder harnesses in the front, right?). Car seats are also a must for kids in the backseats, preferably a seat with side impact protection. I know that most fixed-wing crashes have a forward component on first impact, however, subsequent impacts vary. Having been in law enforcement for 17 years I have seen the benefits of car seats especially ones properly fitted to the child and attached correctly.

DBI wrote:Hi Guys

What is legal? What is safe? and what works best? Thanks, this kid thing is new to me and I can not find an operations manual for them.

Thanks- Dave

Here's what the FAA has to say: https://www.faa.gov/travelers/fly_children/. I was a little surprised when I read it, since my Part 135 opspec said car seats were required. In my own plane we use an approved car seat when my grand kids are with us. FWIW, I've got the Atlee Dodge jump seats for my back seats. Love 'em. I got rid of the bench seat 15 years ago, or so. The car seat fits in either jump seat and straps in ok. I usually have DIL or grandma ride in the back when a kid's in the plane. I have 4-point harnesses in both front seats. I guess when the kids are older (mostly BIGGER) I'll put 4 point harness in the back too. FWIW, i don't think a small child would survive an otherwise band aid G-load crash if the youngun was held in someone's lap or wearing an adult harness.

DBI wrote:
Hi Guys

What is legal? What is safe? and what works best? Thanks, this kid thing is new to me and I can not find an operations manual for them.

Thanks- Dave



Here's what the FAA has to say: https://www.faa.gov/travelers/fly_children/. I was a little surprised when I read it, since my Part 135 opspec said car seats were required. In my own plane we use an approved car seat when my grand kids are with us. FWIW, I've got the Atlee Dodge jump seats for my back seats. Love 'em. I got rid of the bench seat 15 years ago, or so. The car seat fits in either jump seat and straps in ok. I usually have DIL or grandma ride in the back when a kid's in the plane. I have 4-point harnesses in both front seats. I guess when the kids are older (mostly BIGGER) I'll put 4 point harness in the back too. FWIW, i don't think a small child would survive an otherwise band aid G-load crash if the youngun was held in someone's lap or wearing an adult harness.

Thanks everyone for the good info and thanks for the FAA link- very interesting.

Here's something you might consider, for the toddler who is too big for a car seat but not really safe in a seat belt: kidsflysafe.com. For a bench seat with a full width back rest, it's necessary to add some seat belt webbing to the harness, because it's designed for a single back rest. That's easy enough to do, and I have done it. It works pretty well for kids up to about 4 1/2 or so.

Cary

I use a car seat in the back seat for my 18 month old daughter.

Times sure have changed. My first loop in a Cessna 150 Aerobat when I was 8 or 9 years old was with my brother and I sitting side by side together in the right seat with one belt over both our laps.

Seemed perfectly normal at the time and as a kid we didn’t care because we just wanted to do a loop and looked to the adults for guidance.

I have nearly 2yo twins but still haven't worked out one problem. The car seats can be held down two ways. First is by feeding the lap belt through the seat; however, the buckle ends up under the car seat right behind the kids back and is very uncomfortable. Second is to use straps that came with the seat but they don't reach the belt anchors.

The old baby car seats were fine and I'll post again if I figure this out.

Otherwise when they get older there are 4 point adapters marketed towards commercial travel but would likely work when they're a little older:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/slredirect/pi ... ame=sp_atf

Ill add one other thing I ran across when I was researching this a couple years ago; Make sure if the kid is forward facing in the front seat (or only seat in a 150 etc.) that they can't block the control movement with their feet. I read one guys story who was on short final and the kid put their legs up and prevented him from being able to pull the yoke back and had to go around. Wrong timing could make for a rough landing if you cant flare.