Strange thought, but has anyone cleared US/Canadian customs in a amphib or seaplane as a boat, ie didn't jump through all the airplane hoops?

NineThreeKilo wrote:Strange thought, but has anyone cleared US/Canadian customs in a amphib or seaplane as a boat, ie didn't jump through all the airplane hoops?

I always assumed the procedures for boats and airplanes were similar, but I don't do boats. What is easier about boats?

You still need a Customs sticker and I would assume to clear at a port of entry. Are they free from the eAPIS requirements?

blackrock wrote:

NineThreeKilo wrote:Strange thought, but has anyone cleared US/Canadian customs in a amphib or seaplane as a boat, ie didn't jump through all the airplane hoops?

I always assumed the procedures for boats and airplanes were similar, but I don't do boats. What is easier about boats?

You still need a Customs sticker and I would assume to clear at a port of entry. Are they free from the eAPIS requirements?

My understanding is boats don't do eapis, they don't have the landing fees often found at Canadian AOE airports, no flight plan, and there are quite a few more marinias with customs services, often just a video phone.

So it looks like its just a single phone call, arrive and talk to the guy or just the video phone, if you're NEXUS it's just a phone call and that's that.

I'd be calling Customs for answers to that sort of question, not BCP. Anything that can wind you up in jail seems to me like a really good situation to talk to "the Source".

MTV

I have done both many times. Boat definitely easier, but plane is really pretty straightforward once you've done it a couple of times. I often go for the day to the San Juans.

I suppose my comment would be "is this really a group of people that you want to get all bent out of shape by teaching them that you can cross as a boat (despite the intent of their rules)"?

mtv wrote:I'd be calling Customs for answers to that sort of question, not BCP. Anything that can wind you up in jail seems to me like a really good situation to talk to "the Source".

MTV

For sure, I just wanted to see if anyone here had crossed a seaplane over as a boat.

NineThreeKilo wrote:

mtv wrote:I'd be calling Customs for answers to that sort of question, not BCP. Anything that can wind you up in jail seems to me like a really good situation to talk to "the Source".

MTV

For sure, I just wanted to see if anyone here had crossed a seaplane over as a boat.

93K,

Thanks for posting here as it provide the rest of us with this information and I for one, appreciate that. If you call and get more information for the benefit of the rest of us who are curious.

Thanks,
BR

Clearing customs may be more convenient at a marina-- for example, Jefferson County airport 0S9 is an airport of entry with customs service, but you have to call the customs officer out. His office is down at one of the two public marinas in nearby Port Townsend where he does most of his business.
As far as clearing in "as a boat"....no offense, but this seems like a silly question.
What do your registration numbers indicate?
An airplane...which is how they'll treat you, even at a marina.
An airplane on water is no more of a boat than a boat that gets airborne is an airplane.
Get it de-registered by the FAA and re-registered with a set of boat numbers if you want to be treated as a boat.

So you're saying a seaplane on water isn't considered a boat?

If you made a boat that could fly, the FAA wouldn't consider it an aircraft?

NineThreeKilo wrote:So you're saying a seaplane on water isn't considered a boat?...

For the sake of this discussion, yes I am.
If you landed on a road & tried to cross there, would that make it a car?
No, it would still be an airplane. Whether you arrive in the US on the water, on the wheels, or upside down in the ditch, it's an airplane & you gotta follow the airplane rules. IMHO.

hotrod180 wrote:

NineThreeKilo wrote:So you're saying a seaplane on water isn't considered a boat?...

For the sake of this discussion, yes I am.
If you landed on a road & tried to cross there, would that make it a car?
No, it would still be an airplane. Whether you arrive in the US on the water, on the wheels, or upside down in the ditch, it's an airplane & you gotta follow the airplane rules. IMHO.

I'm going to follow up tomorrow with Canadian and US customs.

I do know I am considered a boat under the law when I'm floats wet.

My thought is if I land short of the boarder, step taxi across the boarder to the marinia I'm crossing as a watercraft, now once I cross and clear can I fly in Canada once cleared?

Few questions, but for me I'd be happy to taxi the 2,000' or so to avoid the customs airplane dog and pony show, especially with the nexus card where it's just a phone call before I cross and that's that.

NineThreeKilo wrote: to avoid the customs airplane dog and pony show

I've only crossed once, but it was a non-event. Just a phone call to say I landed and they said thanks, have a nice time in Canada.


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NineThreeKilo wrote:. I do know I am considered a boat under the law when I'm floats wet. .

Under whose law? Please cite the rule for us. The Coast Guard does not consider seaplanes to be boats on the water. That's a common misconception. Yes, the FAA has adopted some of the rules of the road for boats to apply to seaplanes, but that doesn't imply that the CG considers them boats.

You see any regulations requiring PFDs or fire extinguishers in seaplanes? Those are CG rules but don't apply to seaplanes.

Some states may consider a seaplane a boat, but none I've heard of, and in any case the FAA rule is going to hold sway over state regs.

MTV

I could be wrong

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... 3-23-2.pdf


What is the definition of a watercraft?

I haven't done any border crossings since they dreamed up the whole eapis (sp?) thing, but going into Canada was a snap-- arrive on time, call the Canpass number when nobody was there to meet me, write down your authorization number, and fly on. It's coming back home to the US that's a pain in the ass.

I've never flown across the border, but I've made several boat trips. It's pretty straight forward in a boat, as long as you go to a port of entry on either side, i.e., one that's been so designated.

When crossing into Canada, you are supposed to go to a port of entry, and from there call Canadian Customs before anyone other than the skipper leaves the boat. There's a long list of questions which are asked, and then you're given a number to attach to the boat. Some foods, such as Washington apples, are prohibited and must be disposed of before further travel. No weapons are allowed, except for protection from wildlife--no other exceptions, and handguns are absolutely forbidden. Those with a criminal record including DUIs can be prohibited from entry--how carefully they monitor that is a guess.

On the return, it's similar, although some US Customs folks are badge-happy jerks in their attitude--as if they could prohibit a US citizen from returning to the US. Each member of the party needs a passport, and some foods are prohibited. The CBP may choose to inspect the boat, but that's been pretty cursory the couple of times we experienced it. The only real annoyance is that having to dock a large boat twice, first at the CBP dock and then for the night, is a bit of a chore, although I'm so darned good at it that it's not that big a deal.

I have to agree, though, that a boat is a boat and an airplane is an airplane, and trying to argue about it with Customs folks is fruitless. Although the watercraft "rules of the road" apply when a seaplane is on the water, that doesn't magically turn it into a boat for any other purpose. Although Canadian Customs officers are likely to be more polite than their CBP counterparts, the message will be the same. I can't imagine even trying to do that as a joke, with some of the CBP people I've met.

Cary

When on the water a seaplane must abide by the CG rules as far as navigation etc.

You could probably taxi down to the boat dock and when the CBP agent arrives he/she is not going to be amused to find an airplane there if he/she were told it was a boat.

A pissed off CBP agent can seriously screw with your day and if you thought EAPIS was a PIA just wait until the pissed off agent gets through with you.

I have landed at a number of POE's by floatplane and except for a very rare occasion had no issues. EAPIS is pretty painless. It seems a little unclear on procedures when you are departing from a seriously remote area. I have not had to do that so cannot comment.

Don't see much gain in trying to game the system.

TD

AOPA and COPA have cooperated for years on issues of border crossing. They collaborate on a guide to border crossing. Search for it on AOPA's site. Check back if you can't find it or have questions. I cross severa times each year.

I made some notes to present to a group of pilots in the US who were nervous about the process. Maybe some will find it useful. Please ensure that you consult the listed references, and that the links take you to the most current information. This is a couple years old, and I haven't updated it.

Cross border travel

things to do first (once in advance)

* passports for all http://travel.state.gov/content/passpor ... s/new.html
* eapis registration http://eapis.cbp.dhs.gov (http://eapis.cbp.dhs.gov/)
* figure a way to secure your Sender ID and password. This is not supposed to be recorded anywhere, but remembering it can be a problem.
* us customs user fee decal registration http://dtops.cbp.dhs.gov (http://dtops.cbp.dhs.gov/)
* Record your account number to enable easier annual renewal
* us customs user fee decal purchase (annually)
* Record your current year decal number for entry in eAPIS
* Ensure decal is on plane in acceptable place
* (optional) CANPASS registration http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/prog/canpass ... r-eng.html
* (optional) radio station license for aircraft (technically required, but practically **never** asked for - most fly without one)

Departing USA to canada

* Determine your Airport of entry into Canada http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/do-rb/services/aoe-eng.html (CANPASS holders can use additional airports http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/do-rb/servic ... n-eng.html)

* Determine the last airport you will depart in the USA. Will you need internet access (Wi-Fi or other) at the airport to submit your report there, or are you doing it before you get to that airport?

* Determine the US Customs and Border Protection Port of Entry nearest your departure airport. http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/ ... le.doc.pdf

* Create a flight plan from the last point of departure to the Canada point of entry that includes a landmark or navigational point on or near the border where you will cross.
* Determine what time you intend to pass this waypoint. Ensure that your arrival corresponds with Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) hours of operation. Allow for time zones, and seasonal changes in hours of operation. I tend to choose ports of departure and entry near the border so that less time and distance are involved, and the room for error is reduced. Also nice to buy cheap gas at the last stop in the US outbound, or nearest cheap gas inbound.

* Call Canada Customs and report your intended arrival to them. Phone numbers are in the Canada Flight Supplement ( CANPASS users 1-888-226-7277)
* This needs to happen at least two (2) hours before your intended time of arrival
* They'll have a list of questions for you to answer
* guns on board (better be a no unless you have lots of paperwork)
* Check here for what you cannot bring with you: http://cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/travel-voyage/bgb-rmf-eng.html If you are concerned about your or your passenger's admissibility to Canada, http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/informatio ... tation.asp Here is a more user friendly, unofficial guide: http://www.canadawelcomesyou.net/index.shtml

* Prepare and submit EAPIS notice of departure.
* verify you received email authorizing your departure.

* File your ICAO flight plan
* Remember to activate your flight plan when airborne, or sometimes you can ask that they assume you off.
* easier if using IFR flight plan

* Fly away!
* Call ATC for a transponder code that you can keep for crossing the border, and stay in radio contact with ATC for the border crossing and handoff to Nav Canada.
* Advise Nav Canada ATC of any ETA revisions, and request that they advise customs.
* Advise Tower when you are approaching to land that you require customs when you contact them if landing at a controlled airport, or advise radio if at a Mandatory Frequency Area (Airport). Find customs all by yourself if the airport is not attended
* CANPASS users - when you contacted customs you would have agreed on a place to meet if it is a CANPASS port of entry

* When you land
* taxi to the designated yellow painted box in front of the customs office.
* Shut down and wait in your airplane for customs to greet you.
* Close your flight plan before you get busy with customs and forget. VFR flight plans are not automatically closed by tower or other ATC Personnel, but you can request it. (IFR flights are closed by tower if you arrive at a towered facility)
* If CBSA don't appear in a reasonable time (i.e. the time of your planned arrival) contact them by phone. Be ready to copy a clearance number in case they decide not to attend.
* CANPASS you are free to go if nobody meets you BY the time of arrival. you already have your clearance number from when you called initially

_***Enjoy your stay!***_

Returning to the USA

* determine port of entry into usa
* http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/ ... le.doc.pdf
* contact by phone to verify hours of operation and someone will be there (I do this a few days before if choosing smaller non 24/7 ports of entry)
* prepare your route of flight to determine location and time of border crossing
* prepare and submit **EAPIS** notice of arrival
* verify you received email authorizing your arrival
* contact port of entry and confirm details of your arrival and they received the EAPIS. Depending on port of entry this can be done at least 2 hours before but no more than xx hours/days before. (Each port of entry has their own procedures and quirks)
* prepare ICAO flight plan to cross border and plan to arrive within 15 (+/-) minutes of your filed EAPIS arrival time
* anticipate weather delays. best to have plan to return to canada airport if unable to make port of entry to minimize hassle.
* fly your plan
* weather delays causes you to land not at your customs airport? Don't panic but call your port of entry immediately to inform them and ask for instructions.
* arrive and WAIT for customs to invite you out of aircraft (you CAN be fined if you get out before)
* have passports, pilots license (including valid medical -they sometimes ask), and aircraft documents (c of r, insurance, etc.)
* answer questions as they do the radiation check (little box)
* they MAY take your passports away to scan them into the system. they MAY invite you to accompany them (or not)
* on return of passports, you are free to go to final destination. Welcome back to the USA

Reference

* Read through the FAQs on the eAPIS site
* AOPA EAPIS FAQ http://www.aopa.org/Flight-Planning/eAP ... ions.aspx/
* USA Ports of Entry http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/ ... le.doc.pdf

* Consult this guide for additional info: http://www.cbp.gov/travel/pleasure-boats-private-flyers

NineThreeKilo wrote:I could be wrong

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... 3-23-2.pdf


What is the definition of a watercraft?

Good catch. For decades the CG carefully avoided the subject of seaplanes, in deference to the FAA. By the same token, the FAA just said that when you're on the water in a seaplane, you should obey the watercraft rules of the road.

So, this is the FAA, saying that the Coast Guard defines a seaplane on the water to be a "vessel". Note, however that the FAA still says only that the seaplane pilot should obey the rules of the road. Doesn't say the FAA agrees that the plane is a boat, nor does it suggest that the Coast Guard has jurisdiction over seaplanes.

So, it's interesting....a dodge, but with a tip of the hat to the CG, but not really admitting the CG has any jurisdiction over seaplanes.

Thanks for posting....it's an interesting bit of regulatory obfuscation.

MTV

Zzz, is there some way Pinecone's post can be stored on the site other than in the forum? It looks like a useful thing, and searching for it in the forum down the road wouldn't be as easy.

Cary