How did you do it? I have my instrument rating, wanting to get my commercial to help friends out part time. Can't get through the 2 hour solo night time portion of the commercial. I heard of an end around by getting my commercial in a twin because the rules are a little different. Any advise?

First, does your color vision in fact not pass the FAA standards? I know, sounds like a dumb question, but I had two students who failed the "standard" color vision test. In fact, there are something like seven different color vision tests acceptable to the FAA. If you aren't absolutely certain you can't pass a color vision test, find a Senior AME and ask if they'll administer one of the alternate tests.

Barring that, if you can see some color, you can request a Statement Of Demonstrated Ability or SODA from an FAA FSDO. This requires you to fly with a FAA Inspector at a towered airport, and ask the tower to hit you with light gun signals. If you can accurately identify those colors (red, white and green) you may be issued a SODA.

Other than those, I'm not familiar with any "work arounds".

Both the students I worked with were able to pass one of the alternate tests. Point is, color vision acuity is a quite variable sense. The need for color vision in aviation is actually pretty limited.

MTV

I couldn't pass the standard test when I first took it some 43 years ago, but I passed a color threshold test instead. Then off and on I've had trouble passing the standard one. I do carry a SODA, though, which was issued way back in the mid 70s, just in case. Like Mike said, the real need for color vision in aviation is pretty limited, other than hypothetically. With some 85% of males having some red/green color deficiency, there are a whole lot of us in the same boat.

Cary

I can't do the white/green part on the light guns as the test is administered with a one second blink. Red/Green is not a problem. Tried to pass the Farnsworth Lantern test at the University of Reno and the guy told me I'm fugged, but-- invited me to participate in a test that seemed to work for Chimpanzees. Monkey snot to mutate color vision didn't seem like a good thing, so I declined, much to their disappointment. .

I've never taken the SODA, because if you fail, you're done. I'm hoping they do away with the white light portion of the test someday as it really wouldn't be used in real life.Then, I'd take the test with confidence.

The end around with the multi engine commercial rating seems to be that if I had an instructor as required crew member at night that wasn't color blind, we could do the flight and I could log my two hours of night flight as pilot in command.

Nosedragger wrote:How did you do it? I have my instrument rating, wanting to get my commercial to help friends out part time. Can't get through the 2 hour solo night time portion of the commercial. I heard of an end around by getting my commercial in a twin because the rules are a little different. Any advise?

A few things:

1). The requirements for single engine and multi engine comm are identical. I assume you're suggesting that you can find a multi engine plane that requires two pilots? In that case, you wouldn't qualify as PIC and you'd have to log time as SIC IF you could even legally serve in that capacity, since it's a required crew position and has to be qualified to fly the plane (as SIC) AND be legal for the operation (Night VFR). If I'm understanding this, you would not qualify to serve as SIC at night, and I doubt that the FAA would accept SIC time in any case.

2). To serve as PIC in commercial ops, you'd have to hold an unrestricted second class medical. I think. You'd have to hold a second class in any case, and a limitation of color blindness is likely going to put a halt to serving as a commercial pilot. Maybe.

3). Where are you going to find a multi engine airplane to do the night flight in which requires a two pilot crew, and you're going to get SIC rated in the thing? Like.....how? And at what cost. Not many twins come to mind that require an SIC.....DC 3 comes to mind, and there is at least one place that'll train in a 3, bring $$$$$$$. A lot of pilots think you can sit in the right seat of many airplanes and log SIC, but that's very rare, actually, and almost always requires a rating in the craft.

FWIW

MTV

Green - white

Flying old nardo C-140.

I can remember when we would close in on a field at night using the green-white beacon.

And stay AWAY from any green-white-white.

I know - loonngg time ago.

Hoping the best for ya.

Trim

Nosedragger,

I have only browsed the regulations and requirements a little but I didn't see the 2 hours solo. I did see the 2 hours PIC requirement but couldn't that be accomplished with a safety pilot, same as IFR requirements. If it is 61.129 that you are referring to there is also 5 hours total night time with 10 TO & L at a control tower but it just says you must be PIC. I would believe you can be PIC with a safety pilot.

The way I understand it you could earn your Commercial Certificate with class 3 medical but you would need a class 2 to exercise the privileges of the commercial.

Lost wrote:Nosedragger,

I have only browsed the regulations and requirements a little but I didn't see the 2 hours solo. I did see the 2 hours PIC requirement but couldn't that be accomplished with a safety pilot, same as IFR requirements. If it is 61.129 that you are referring to there is also 5 hours total night time with 10 TO & L at a control tower but it just says you must be PIC. I would believe you can be PIC with a safety pilot.

The way I understand it you could earn your Commercial Certificate with class 3 medical but you would need a class 2 to exercise the privileges of the commercial.

Ya, the medical might be hard. There's a lot of color blind guys flying commercial but it used to be a little different., they had to pass a color test once and they were done.

Australia just went through a million dollar court battle with a color blind pilot and lost, setting a precedence. We'll see if it translates to the US.

Lost wrote:Nosedragger,

I have only browsed the regulations and requirements a little but I didn't see the 2 hours solo. I did see the 2 hours PIC requirement but couldn't that be accomplished with a safety pilot, same as IFR requirements. If it is 61.129 that you are referring to there is also 5 hours total night time with 10 TO & L at a control tower but it just says you must be PIC. I would believe you can be PIC with a safety pilot.

The way I understand it you could earn your Commercial Certificate with class 3 medical but you would need a class 2 to exercise the privileges of the commercial.

I revisited 61.129 since I last tried to get a commercial rating, and it seems that they've extended the solo time to single engine as well. It used to only apply to multis, which was the end around I'd heard about for night time solo. Looks like I can do it now.

For other color blind pilots, here's a hard to find piece of info :

Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners

Decision Considerations
Aerospace Medical Dispositions
Item 52. Color Vision
TESTS APPROVED FOR AIRMEN ARE NOT ALL ACCEPTABLE FOR AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS (FAA employee 2152 series and contract tower air traffic controllers).
FOR ATCS INFORMATION, see the Acceptable Test Instruments for Color Vision Screening of ATCS (PDF) chart or contact your RFS for any questions.
The following criteria apply to AIRMEN ONLY:
An applicant meets the color vision standard if he/she passes any of the color vision tests listed in Examination Techniques, Item 52. Color Vision. If an applicant fails any of these tests, inform the applicant of the option of taking any of the other acceptable color vision tests listed in Item 52. Color Vision Examination Equipment and Techniques before requesting the Specialized Operational Medical Tests in Section D below.
Inform the applicant that if he/she takes and fails any component of the Specialized Operational Medical Tests (PDF) in Section D, then he/she will not be permitted to take any of the remaining listed office-based color vision tests in Examination Techniques, Item 52. Color Vision as an attempt to remove any color vision limits or restrictions on their airman medical certificate. That pathway is no longer an option to the airman, and no new result will be considered.
An applicant does not meet the color vision standard if testing reveals:
A. All Classes
AOC (1965 edition) pseudoisochromatic plates: seven or more errors on plates 1-15.
AOC-HRR (second edition): Any error in test plates 7-11. Because the first 4 plates in the test book are for demonstration only, test plate 7 is actually the eleventh plate in the book. (See instruction booklet.)
Dvorine pseudoisochromatic plates (second edition, 15 plates): seven or more errors on plates 1-15.
Ishihara pseudoisochromatic plates: Concise 14-plate edition: six or more errors on plates 1-11; the 24-plate edition: seven or more errors on plates 1-15; the 38-plate edition: nine or more errors on plates 1-21.
Richmond (1983 edition) pseudoisochromatic plates: seven or more errors on plates 1-15.
OPTEC 900 Vision tester and Farnsworth Lantern test: an average of more than one error per series of nine color pairs in series 2 and 3. (See instruction booklet.)
Titmus Vision Tester, Titmus i400, OPTEC 2000 Vision Tester, Keystone Orthoscope, or Keystone View Telebinocular: any errors in the six plates.
Richmond-HRR, 4th edition: two or more errors on plates 5-24. Plates 1-4 are for demonstration only; plates 5-10 are screening plates; and plates 11-24 are diagnostic plates.
B. Certificate Limitation
If an applicant fails to meet the color vision standard as interpreted above but is otherwise qualified, the Examiner must issue a medical certificate bearing the limitation:

NOT VALID FOR NIGHT FLYING OR BY COLOR SIGNAL CONTROL

C. The color vision screening tests above (Section A) are not to be used for the purpose of removing color vision limits/restrictions from medical certificates of airmen who have failed the Specialized Operational Medical Tests below (Section D). See bold paragraph in the introduction of this section (above).

D. Specialized Operational Medical Tests for Applicants Who Do Not Meet the Standard.
Applicants who fail the color vision screening test as listed, but desire an airman medical certificate without the color vision limitation, may be given, upon request, an opportunity to take and pass additional operational color perception tests. If the airman passes the operational color vision perception test(s), then he/she will be issued a Letter of Evidence (LOE).
The operational tests are determined by the class of medical certificate requested. The request should be in writing and directed to AMCD or RFS. See NOTE for description of the operational color perception tests.
Applicants for a third-class medical certificate need only take the Operational Color Vision Test (OCVT).
The applicant is permitted to take the OCVT only once during the day. If the applicant fails, he/she may request to take the OCVT at night. If the applicant elects to take the OCVT at night, he/she may take it only once.
For an upgrade to first- or second-class medical certificate, the applicant must first pass the OCVT during daylight and then pass the color vision Medical Flight Test (MFT). If the applicant fails the OCVT during the day, he/she will not be allowed to apply for an upgrade to First- or Second-Class certificate. If the applicant fails the color vision MFT, he/she is not permitted to upgrade to first- or second-class certificate.
E. An LOE may restrict an applicant to a third-class medical certificate. Airmen shall not be issued a medical certificate of higher class than indicated on the LOE. Exercise care in reviewing an LOE before issuing a medical certificate to an airman.
F. Color Vision Correcting Lens (e.g. X-Chrom)
Such lenses are unacceptable to the FAA as a means for correcting a pilot's color vision deficiencies.
G. Any tests not specifically listed above are unacceptable methods of testing for FAA medical certificate. Examples of unacceptable tests include, but are not limited to, the OPTEC 5000 Vision Tester (color vision portion), "Farnsworth Lantern Flashlight," "yarn tests," and AME-administered aviation Signal Light Gun test (AME office use is prohibited). Web-based color vision applications, downloaded, or printed versions of color vision tests are also prohibited. Examiners must use actual and specific color vision plates and testing machinery for applicant evaluations.
NOTE:
An applicant for a third-class airman medical certificate who has defective color vision and desires an airman medical certificate without the color vision limitation must demonstrate the ability to pass an OCVT during the day. The OCVT consists of the following:
A Signal Light Test (SLT): Identify in a timely manner aviation red, green, and white
Aeronautical chart reading: Read and correctly interpret in a timely manner aeronautical charts, including print in various sizes, colors, and typefaces; conventional markings in several colors; and, terrain colors

An applicant for a first- or second- class airman medical certificate who has defective color vision and desires an airman medical certificate without the color vision limitation must first demonstrate the ability to pass the OCVT during the day (as above) and then must pass a color vision Medical Flight Test (MFT). The color vision MFT is performed in the aircraft, including in-flight testing. It consists of the following:
Read and correctly interpret in a timely manner aviation instruments or displays
Recognize terrain and obstructions in a timely manner
Visually identify in a timely manner the location, color, and significance of aeronautical lights such as, but not limited to, lights of other aircraft in the vicinity, runway lighting systems, etc.
Applicants who take and pass both the OCVT during the day and the color vision MFT will be given a letter of evidence (LOE) valid for all classes of medical certificates and will have no limitation or comment made on the certificate regarding color vision as they meet the standard for all classes. Applicants who take and pass only the OCVT during the day will be given an LOE valid only for third-class medical certificate.
An applicant who fails the SLT portion of the OCVT during daylight hours may repeat the test at night. Should the airman pass the SLT at night, the restriction
NOT VALID FOR FLIGHT DURING DAYLIGHT HOURS BY COLOR SIGNAL CONTROL
will be placed on the replacement medical certificate. The airman must have taken the daylight hours test first and failed prior to taking the night test.
Color Vision Testing Flowchart (PDF)

Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners
AMCS Login
Search Guide
NavAids - Alternative Navigation for the AME Guide
Application Process
Applicant History
Application Review
Exam Techniques
General Information
Decision Considerations
Pharmaceuticals
Special Issuances
Substances Dependence/Abuse
Synopsis of Medical Standards

R&R No not that one, but - Rules & Regs.
CFR-Title-14 - FARs - AIM - then the how to books.

Now I remember why an old ground school instructor told me there were more doctors than pilots.
That was some time ago so I can't vouch for the currency of that statement.

I remember I wanted to get my commercial without the inst. rating just to fly tow a tow plane for some friends at the Sky Sailing airport?!? in Fremont, Ca. north of there old Fremont itself strip where ya just had to be able to tell how much of the northern end was under water. Could get a "limited" ?!? commercial for day light within 25 miles.

Wannabe

PS: white light - ya wouldn't want to rearend another plane at night, not that I could ever see running lights in the bay area anyway.

wannabe wrote:R&R No not that one, but - Rules & Regs.
CFR-Title-14 - FARs - AIM - then the how to books.

Now I remember why an old ground school instructor told me there were more doctors than pilots.
That was some time ago so I can't vouch for the currency of that statement.

I remember I wanted to get my commercial without the inst. rating just to fly tow a tow plane for some friends at the Sky Sailing airport?!? in Fremont, Ca. north of there old Fremont itself strip where ya just had to be able to tell how much of the northern end was under water. Could get a "limited" ?!? commercial for day light within 25 miles.

Wannabe

PS: white light - ya wouldn't want to rearend another plane at night, not that I could ever see running lights in the bay area anyway.

Limited commercial with no instrument is pretty common. Lots of ag aerial applicators have them. The restriction is can't carry passengers at night more than 25 miles away. Since most ag planes are single seat.....

MTV

mtv wrote:

wannabe wrote:R&R No not that one, but - Rules & Regs.
CFR-Title-14 - FARs - AIM - then the how to books.

Now I remember why an old ground school instructor told me there were more doctors than pilots.
That was some time ago so I can't vouch for the currency of that statement.

I remember I wanted to get my commercial without the inst. rating just to fly tow a tow plane for some friends at the Sky Sailing airport?!? in Fremont, Ca. north of there old Fremont itself strip where ya just had to be able to tell how much of the northern end was under water. Could get a "limited" ?!? commercial for day light within 25 miles.

Wannabe

PS: white light - ya wouldn't want to rearend another plane at night, not that I could ever see running lights in the bay area anyway.

Limited commercial with no instrument is pretty common. Lots of ag aerial applicators have them. The restriction is can't carry passengers at night more than 25 miles away. Since most ag planes are single seat.....

MTV

That;s all I want. Also, I'm not sure one needs a commercial ticket to tow gliders.The pilot of the glider hauling a paying passenger might.

The tow plane's insurance company might dictate pilot qualifications too.

Gump

Nosedragger wrote:

mtv wrote:

wannabe wrote:R&R No not that one, but - Rules & Regs.
CFR-Title-14 - FARs - AIM - then the how to books.

Now I remember why an old ground school instructor told me there were more doctors than pilots.
That was some time ago so I can't vouch for the currency of that statement.

I remember I wanted to get my commercial without the inst. rating just to fly tow a tow plane for some friends at the Sky Sailing airport?!? in Fremont, Ca. north of there old Fremont itself strip where ya just had to be able to tell how much of the northern end was under water. Could get a "limited" ?!? commercial for day light within 25 miles.

Wannabe

PS: white light - ya wouldn't want to rearend another plane at night, not that I could ever see running lights in the bay area anyway.

Limited commercial with no instrument is pretty common. Lots of ag aerial applicators have them. The restriction is can't carry passengers at night more than 25 miles away. Since most ag planes are single seat.....

MTV

That;s all I want. Also, I'm not sure one needs a commercial ticket to tow gliders.The pilot of the glider hauling a paying passenger might.

If you are being compensated to fly the tow plane, it requires a Commercial certificate.

There may be a dozen ways to kind of circumvent that reg, but I doubt you could legally, and as Gump notes, insurance is often the fly in the ointment, not the FAA.

If you're looking to build time, volunteer to fly the tow plane. If you want a part time job, there are easier ways to accomplish that.

MTV

^^^^^That explains why they always told me I didn't need a commercial to tow gliders--they were going to keep it legal by not paying me!

I have no interest in towing or being a bus driver, and only a mild interest in building hours, so a limited commercial would work fine for me.

AOPA claims that there's change in the wind for color blind pilots. Being required to carry a handheld radio at night and a waiver to go to other countries at night is something I can live with.

Try this one.

http://www.color-blindness.com/color-arrangement-test/

NineThreeKilo wrote:Try this one.

http://www.color-blindness.com/color-arrangement-test/

Yup, still got it bad.