If someone already has their commercial sea plane and then get they get a cfi, can they start instructing in a seaplane? There is a regulation that I believe states that one must have 15 hours pic in category and class before adding that rating to CFI ( I.e Mei). Does that mean they need 15 hours before they can add seaplane cfi to a cfi certificate? Or is their another check ride in a sea plane? Thanks in advance.

Your CFI includes the SES if you hold a Commercial SES.
No extra checkride. I've not heard of someone starting to teach seaplanes right after getting the rating, nor anyone flying solo after getting it without additional time.

JJBAKER wrote:Your CFI includes the SES if you hold a Commercial SES.
No extra checkride. I've not heard of someone starting to teach seaplanes right after getting the rating, nor anyone flying solo after getting it without additional time.

Actually, it happens more often than you'd think. Which is one of the reasons that insurance rates are so high on seaplanes.....

BUT, the FAA, in it's wisdom, deems a freshly minted CFI, who holds COMM/SES rating to be "qualified" to instruct in seaplanes.

Please don't until you get a little more experience. You'll be doing us all a favor.

MTV

I believe you have to have 15 hours in Class as PIC (hours after you take the check ride) to instruct.

[Deleted]

JJBAKER wrote:

mtv wrote:

JJBAKER wrote:Your CFI includes the SES if you hold a Commercial SES.
No extra checkride. I've not heard of someone starting to teach seaplanes right after getting the rating, nor anyone flying solo after getting it without additional time.

Actually, it happens more often than you'd think. Which is one of the reasons that insurance rates are so high on seaplanes.....

BUT, the FAA, in it's wisdom, deems a freshly minted CFI, who holds COMM/SES rating to be "qualified" to instruct in seaplanes.

Please don't until you get a little more experience. You'll be doing us all a favor.

MTV

I believe to have stated that the CFI includes the SES if such is part of OP's commercial pilot certificate and that there is no separate checkride required.
I have not heard = I have no personal acquaintance to anyone who started teaching in seaplanes without getting additional time. Not sure what the average time is, before people start teaching floats.

littlewheelinback wrote:I believe you have to have 15 hours in Class as PIC (hours after you take the check ride) to instruct.

If the applicant holds appropriate category and class ratings (Category = Airplane/ Class = Single Engine) as a certificated pilot during the training towards the SES, that time of training received is in fact PIC time and can be counted towards the 15 hour rule, if I remember correctly. Too lazy to look it up, it's explained someplace in Part 61 pertaining to Flight Instructors, I believe 61.183 (j).

You're only partially correct. The 15 hours doesn't apply here, BECAUSE the 15 hour PIC is in Category (Airplane) and Class (Single Engine). If you are a CFI, even a new one, you doubtless already have AT LEAST 15 PIC logged in Airplane, Single Engine. Unless of course, you did all your ratings (PPL, Instrument, Comm, CFI) in multi engine airplanes. THEN, you'd have to complete 15 hours PIC in SINGLE ENGINE airplanes prior to instructing in SES aircraft. The "Seaplane" is NOT a class, by definition.

You're confusing the fact that many folks complete the Airplane, Multi Engine class rating with less than 15 total PIC (The ONLY PIC during the training for MEL is going to be the CHECKRIDE).

And, I've seen at least four I know who started instructing in SES right after their rating, that's just off the top of my head.... It happens, generally with someone who owns an airplane, and it's not insured.......

If you're going to get SES rated ASK A LOT of questions about your instructor's qualifications, and unless you need some practice in emergency underwater egress, choose one who's got some experience.

MTV

[Deleted]

mtv wrote:Please don't until you get a little more experience. You'll be doing us all a favor.

MTV

And exactly how does an individual, whom is not a millionaire, do that? Rent an airplane?...no...insurance won't let us rent at 7-10 hours. Buy a seaplane?...no...if we have to get a loan to purchase the airplane (which 99% of the population needs to do), and that requires insurance...which...the individual in question will not be insurable yet.

That's the problem I have with the system. The only way to get SES time after you get your rating is to instruct. Your snide comment that I quoted is not helping

Yes, you were both right. With the multiple forums and topics reviewed and responded to every day by some folks, not to mention the phone calls, kid/wife interruptions etc., I'm surprised there's not more discombobulated conversation online.
Back to the topic. There's probably many who go right into training SES after getting a CFI, but who have hundreds of hours of hours of float time prior to the Comm or CFI. Wouldn't want to make the mistake of discrediting real world experience, so make sure you ask the question appropriately. Yes, I realize Mike and JJ were talking about someone who is a CFI first and then gets their SES rating with no prior float experience.

Zpilot... That was not snide, it was very honest. Float flying is fun and very easy to do but your not going to have any experience doing it and able to teach it by just getting the rating. There is a lot of ways to build time if you think about it.

I have to be honest here...it makes me crazy seeing some of these cfi's that come from a 141 school or not and have less than 300 hours or so. It just makes no sense. I can understand the rush or urgency to obtain ratings, etc., but as suggested here just don't race out and start teaching floats. The same goes for these guys that become cfi's and then think they understand off field or Mtn flying after spending their first 500 hours at sea level and a landing or two at there friends grass field or johnson creek for that matter.

Any student seeking the training I would hope ask questions first About the cfi's own experience. Another example would be getting your ifr ticket from an instructor with zero actual.
None of this means you need to be a millionaire to do such.

Akt

ZPilot wrote:

mtv wrote:Please don't until you get a little more experience. You'll be doing us all a favor.

MTV

And exactly how does an individual, whom is not a millionaire, do that? Rent an airplane?...no...insurance won't let us rent at 7-10 hours. Buy a seaplane?...no...if we have to get a loan to purchase the airplane (which 99% of the population needs to do), and that requires insurance...which...the individual in question will not be insurable yet.

That's the problem I have with the system. The only way to get SES time after you get your rating is to instruct. Your snide comment that I quoted is not helping

At a rating mill you will get your SES in about 4 hrs. Most if that time you will be clueless or operating at saturation... Do you honestly think after that 4 hrs you will be competent to instruct yet another clueless, saturated individual?

What part of 'the system' has let you down? I guess I don't understand why people think that their lack of fore thought (read: didn't save or earn enough to fly) constitutes a failure in 'the system' ?

I don't agree with plenty of things Mike says, but his comments on this subject are spot on....

ZPilot wrote:And exactly how does an individual, whom is not a millionaire, do that? Rent an airplane?...no...insurance won't let us rent at 7-10 hours. Buy a seaplane?...no..

... The only way to get SES time after you get your rating is to instruct.

So you're saying that you see a way to build your own SES hours, having only the dual instruction from getting your own rating under your belt, by immediately instructing another seaplane n00b on the very skill that you just learned? I'm sure the first thing anyone would point to after an incident or accident in that scenario was the lack of total SES hours in the cockpit.

Why is it any more snide for an experienced SES instructor to speak out against this practice, than anything else that isn't a good idea? Suspending prudence as a solution to a poor-availability-of-aircraft situation, or as a way to overcome the cost prohibitiveness of float flying doesn't exactly rank as brilliant. Not all CFI's are equal, and experience is one of the few metrics that we can actually start to evaluate them by.

I needed an insurance checkout once in my then new-to-me 170B, and needed a good tailwheel CFI. This kid at the FBO who spent his time teaching primary students in 150's told me he could do it, that he had this tailwheel endorsement. When I asked how many total tailwheel hours he had, he said "about 20." That didn't even meet the minimum insurance requirements. He was of no value to me for that exercise, I wanted the salty experienced guy.

I guess I would be curious how a CFI with newly minted SES would sell himself to an owner/student who has no SES rating.

For the record, I hope none of you think I was asking this question because I was going to partake in such. I wouldn't trust my own life behind the yoke of a ses without an instructor right now, even with a rating, much less trust myself to carry passenger or pass on knowledge.

As far as gaining ses hours, although it is not cost effective, I think the only solution is to spend time at a school with ses instructors and pay for quality dual time. I would cost a good dime but there are not many options unless you buy a little experimental or lsa on floats and start flying that around. Still not a good idea without a lot more dual time.

Also, there was a discussion a few months ago with a guy from MN who owed and rented 4 float planes. He was looking for cfi's and said that he was willing to train them in ses. That is what somewhat sparked the curiosity as well. Wonder how much training they get before instructing. Seemed like a good guy though and was willing to rent out his ses planes, which is very hard to come by.

ZPilot wrote:And exactly how does an individual, whom is not a millionaire, do that? Rent an airplane?...no...insurance won't let us rent at 7-10 hours. Buy a seaplane?...no...if we have to get a loan to purchase the airplane (which 99% of the population needs to do), and that requires insurance...which...the individual in question will not be insurable yet.

That's the problem I have with the system. The only way to get SES time after you get your rating is to instruct.

And... What Rob says. There's lots more to buying an airplane besides just buying one. You think floatplane insurance is high dollar for an individual? Go see what it costs for a flightschool or Part 135 outfit.

You want to build SES time, and learn how to fly floats? You go buy one. You insure it. And you fly the dogshit out of the thing at gross weights. You survive that without breaking anything, and then you can start to think you're a float pilot. Even instructing doesn't cut it. You're light, and not really working the airplane.

Dave Wiley was my friend, and my float guru. And he's the one who talked me into getting a T-Cart with C-85 on Edo 1320's. Gutless, underfloated and strictly a one finger airplane. Anything more was ham fisted. But man oh man, once I developed the feel for that step when heavy in that little T-Cart, anything else I've ever flown on floats since then is a piece of cake.

And, in the grand scheme of things, airplanes and floats like that are cheap, and so is the insurance. Even with next to zero hours. Get a few hundred hours to learn the airplane, then go instruct, and you'll be imparting some good knowledge on your float students.

Gump

ZPilot wrote:

mtv wrote:Please don't until you get a little more experience. You'll be doing us all a favor.

MTV

And exactly how does an individual, whom is not a millionaire, do that? Rent an airplane?...no...insurance won't let us rent at 7-10 hours. Buy a seaplane?...no...if we have to get a loan to purchase the airplane (which 99% of the population needs to do), and that requires insurance...which...the individual in question will not be insurable yet.

That's the problem I have with the system. The only way to get SES time after you get your rating is to instruct. Your snide comment that I quoted is not helping

You can do it the way thousands of folks have done it in the past. Nobody said it was going to be easy. You can purchase a small seaplane, like a Champ, a TCraft, or as I did, a J-3 (back before J-3's became LSA legal). Then, you get some thorough dual instruction in that airplane until you're competent to LEARN more. Then you fly the hey out of the thing.

THEN, you instruct. Show me a seaplane training facility that uses zero time SES instructors and I'll show you an outfit that won't last long. Now, there are places that you can work as a dock hand, fueling, etc, and pick up an hour or two of dual now and again till they're willing to give you a shot.

But, while a few folks do in fact start instructing in OTHER'S very expensive airplanes, cause they work cheap, and they need the time, these situations often result in negative learning, and too often, accidents.

Seaplane flying is a VERY different world than wheel plane flying, and there are a LOT of ways to get in trouble. Even giving ten hours of dual, it's next to impossible to expose a person to all the combinations and permutations. An experienced seaplane pilot can at least discuss these prats and pitfalls with the applicant. The newbie may not, because he's never seen many of these things.

Flying isn't easy, and it isn't cheap. In some ways, that's unfortunate, but the point here is that you can get hurt and you can damage very expensive equipment in a heartbeat if you don't know what you're doing.

You're not going to be doing a student a service by trying to instruct in seaplanes without a reasonable bit of experience in seaplanes.

My opinion, shared by the insurance industry, by the way.

MTV

[Deleted]

I was not expecting the backlash here.

So many of you said: "There are other ways"....without following up with a realistic example.

"Go buy a plane" you say...
As I already mentioned, to buy a plane with a loan, you have to have it insured. An insurance company will NOT insure you to fly floats with 7 - 10 hours. Period. Are they going to insure someone with a dripping wet SES rating? No.
Do I, like most of you, have $85,000 (+\- $20,000) in cash to blow on a plane so I don't have to pay insurance? No.

"Hang out somewhere and do some fueling for fun...maybe they'll let you fly"
...yeah....ok, look, I am not 16 anymore. I work 10 to 12 hours a day, 5 days a week, and volunteer on the 6th day, and rest on the 7th. Besides, if you were a 135 operator or private owner of an airplane, would you let a stranger jump in your plane whom is not insurable...No, you wouldn't.

Up here in Alaska, they want 500 hours on floats. There are no other domestic SES jobs that will hire an individual with less than a couple hundred hours. It is a different story in Canada. I hear they'll put you in a Beaver with a dripping wet rating, yet, I have no evidence to back that up.

What am I doing to try to build up my SES time?
A- I joined the CAP up here. If I am lucky, I will get 10 hours in the amphib Beaver this summer...but, only if I am lucky.
B- I plan on flying Adventure Seaplane's seaplane this fall from Minnesota to Florida. It will cost me a small fortune which I can't (shouldn't really afford), but I will do it anyways.
C- I plan on getting my CFI reinstated this fall.

I might, if I am lucky, end up with 50 hours SES total by the end of the year, and that's after spending thousands of $ that I don't have.

Over the last few months, I have been begging the community to share ideas on how to get some SES hours. Most of you were silent. However, when I call someone else out, I get this backlash.


I was hoping that the seaplane community was not like what I was fearing, but it is:
Older wealthy folks that have the cash to just outright buy an airplane and talk-down to those trying to get their SES hours.
Everyone at some point has to have their first hour of instructing another pilot on float flying. Don't you forget where you came from


ZP

[Deleted- jjb]

ZPilot wrote:I was not expecting the _ here.

So many of you said: "There are other ways"....without following up with a realistic example.

"Go buy a plane" you say...
As I already mentioned, to buy a plane with a loan, you have to have it insured. An insurance company will NOT insure you to fly floats with 7 - 10 hours. Period. Are they going to insure someone with a dripping wet SES rating? No.
Do I, like most of you, have $85,000 (+\- $20,000) in cash to blow on a plane so I don't have to pay insurance? No.

There are a whole lot of us here who are NOT rich. For me, a 30K airplane (which is what I have) is it. About the same as going out and buying a new Ford pickup. I guarantee you, that you can find a decent little floatplane for that kind of money. T-Cart, Cessna 120/140, Pacer. All on some dinged up looking Edo floats.

Is it a new Super Cub? A new C185 or 206 on amphibs? No, but it's an airplane, it's on floats, and it won't cost you an arm or a leg to insure. And yes, you can get insurance with low float total time. You may have to fly off 25 to 50 hours with an instructor as a requirement for said insurance, but so what. I'm betting there are lots of other low time float instructors chomping at the bit to fatten up their logbooks too.

Bottom line is, for not a shitload of money you can buy into float time. You show up with 500 float hours in a T-Cart looking for an AK job you will get in the door. And you'll be a lot better float driver than a guy with equal C206 float time. The underpowered, underfloated airplanes won't fly heavy unless you have the skill and technique down. The airplane will teach you. Lots.

Gump

Wow, where does one even start?

Mr. Baker: You stated that an applicant may log as PIC that time during which he/she operated the SEAPLANE while being given dual instruction as PIC time, even though that applicant has not completed a SES add on rating.

This is not correct. Show me the FAR that permits this. If you've logged such time, you'd best get out the white out, and get to work. Here is the definition from FAR 1 of PIC: Pilot in command means the person who:

(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;

(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and

(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

SES is a "type rating" under this definition. If you are a SEL rated pilot, your first SES PIC experience is DURING the checkride for the SES. Don't believe me? Call your local FSDO. But, get out the white out first.

You don't believe that low time (as in near zero time) CFIs jump in any old airplane and do a Flight Review???? Want some names? Hell, I'll give you their phone numbers as well, though at least a couple of them have been subsequently fired from their employ for flying beyond their capabilities and qualifications as well, so they may no longer be at the address I have for them.

One example: A fellow with a PA-12 called me and asked for a Flight Review. 12 is on floats. I gave him the list of stuff we'd cover, including weight and balance for the airplane and my weight. Came down to the plane for the review and being familiar with PA-12s, I asked him to complete a weight and balance for this flight, BEFORE we even started. His response: "No". Uh...I said, why not? His response: "You and I both know that we couldn't fly this airplane legally with any gas in it". To which I bid him adieu. Two days later, a young CFI who I'd worked with on his CFI was working with this guy doing his Flight Review. By the way, the young CFI weighs pretty much what this OLD CFI weighs. Hmmmm. And, in the process, they manage to get the airplane upside down during a glassy water operation. Now, this particular CFI has MAYBE ten TOTAL hours (NOT PIC) in SES. Let's see....out of legal W/B, to start. And, actually, we don't even need to go any further, do we, if we're the FAA?

And, there are others.

Look, folks, there are ways you can do this. None of these ways involve sitting around a computer pissing and moaning about how the whole world is out to get you, or how the whole world doesn't change the rules to accomodate you.

I did it by buying a little airplane, just like Gump did. Not long ago, a couple of my students went together and bought a Cessna 140A to build time in. As Gump noted, there are a lot of folks who have more money in their MOTORCYCLES than that kind of airplane. Do you need a loan to get there? Maybe. I worked and saved till I had enough saved to buy outright a J-3 on floats. Took me several years, but I got there. THEN I got some experience. No hull coverage, because I couldn't afford it. Sometimes I carried liability, sometimes I didnt'. Dumb not to, but when you're young......The young folks here with the 140 got a loan from the bank of mom and dad. I know.....not available to all. Didn't work for me, and that's good. I earned it.

I scared the crap outta myself a few times with that little airplane, but I got smarter. The outfit I worked for at the time had a minimum of 500 PIC and 50 PIC in seaplanes to fly for them....waaaaaayyyyy minimum hours But, I'd got there, and that door opened because I took the initiative and went out and got the experience-at my expense. Now, as I was doing this, I TALKED to local 135 pilots, and learned and soaked up EVERY bit of knowledge I could from them. They were GREAT. Don't EVER pass up the opportunity to learn from others who've gone before.

Was it cheap? No. Was it free? No. Do I regret not having a fancy car at the time? Not at all--that old POS Toyota Land Cruiser with no two fenders the same color and an engine that barely made it to the airport on a good day got me where I wanted to go, most days, and on the others, I walked. And, I did an engine change to a junkyard engine over a weekend, assisted by a friend who actually knew something about engines and cars.....thank you!

So, do I qualify as an old fart, reminiscing about the "good old days"??? Maybe, but I'll guarantee you that there ARE jobs out there TODAY---IF you'll get off your ass and get some experience. Sometimes that is NOT going to be painless.

You got 50 hours and nobody has told you how to get a SES job???? READ a few of these posts, fer cryin out loud. Or are you and Baker just here to piss and moan about how the whole world is out to get you? Get off the computer, get out there and fly. Jobs are there. And, contrary to Baker's post, things in Europe aren't just sweet and juicy. Ask a few of the European pilots who are over HERE building time. Want a few of their names too?

Adventure Seaplanes, owned by Brian Schanke, who posts on here, and was referenced earlier, RENTS seaplanes. You're going to have to fly with them some, and you're going to have to buy some block time. Which is cheaper--block time or buying a T-Craft? Dunno, but either can be done. So, one might ask why Kenmore Air Harbor, which rented seaplanes for many decades no longer does???? Simple answer: Low time seaplane pilot/accident/lawyer. End of seaplane rentals at Kenmore. Bummer, but that is our society today. All these folks who think they should be able to rent anything, regardless of their experience/qualification, suddenly leave a spouse who sees major $$$ in litigation. And, the insurance industry drives pilot qualifications, NOT the FAA, in case anyone hasn't figured that out yet.

For perspective, I have a gent who wants me to train him and his wife in SES in their PA-18 Super Cub on amphibious floats. I had to talk to their insurance carrier as to my qualifications. He asked me a lot of questions, which I answered as accurately as I could. He asked me how many hours I have logged in PA-18s on amphibious floats. I answered "Zero". He asked me how many hours I have logged on amphibious floats, which I answered, and then he asked me how many hours I've logged on PA-18s on straight floats, and again I answered. He then said "Well, I'm sure you've logged a "few" hours in Super CUbs on amphibs, right?" My answer was NO, I haven't. I am not going to BS anyone as to my qualifications, and I am NOT going to fly in an airplane that I don't feel fully qualified to instruct in. I told the broker that my policy is that I DO NOT train people in aircraft that I am not qualified in, but I am qualified in a Super Cub on amphibious floats. But, if they don't think so, that is just FINE by me. I do not need the experience. I then asked the insurance guy how many hours the underwriter wanted the customer to have in the airplane before turning him loose in it.

The next day, the broker called me back and said the underwriter says I am qualified to instruct in the airplane, and the owner just needs a signature in his logbook by me to the effect that I have found him qualified to fly that airplane on amphibious floats.

Shit, it's gonna be a long week....

MTV