[Deleted by JJB]

I think somebody pulled there underoos up a little too tight.

Might get a boat instead.

gb

JJBAKER wrote:Whatever... [Deleted by JJB]

Yuck, Mike.

JJ,

This might get me banned, but I gotta know, in this picture you posted, which one is representing you? The little girl or the jackass?

gbflyer wrote:Might get a boat instead.

gb

I expect that boating skills are probably 90% of the SES, so this is actually a great suggestion.

[Deleted]

JJBAKER wrote:
Once judged by MTV, the verdict is final, and henceforth you are nothing but an idiot to him and those with their heads half a mile up his rear end.

Haven't seen a single fruitful discussion with him that didn't involve a whole lot of condescending, downright embarrassing arrogance with anyone in opposition living to see the end of it. Even if you're right, you'll end up wrong or only partially correct.

There's the message, and the delivery. One might not like the one without being able to argue with the other.

I've seldom seen him wrong, and when he has been, I've seen him acknowledge it publicly on here and elsewhere.

You on the other hand...were you wrong on your interpretation, or what?

If that makes me having my head up his rear end, so be it.

[Deleted]

JJBAKER wrote:

once&futr_alaskaflyer wrote:You on the other hand...were you wrong on your interpretation, or what?

Hardly a life altering/ defining matter. OP's got his answers. Who cares for the rest.
Water under the bridge, and there are so many other ways to waste time and effort.

I see

For the rest of us, I don't believe it's any more complicated than the rules for logging PIC in 61.51:

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges.

If you aren't rated in a seaplane you can't log PIC, even if you have your CFI and are simply adding it. Of course the rules for a CFI giving instruction are different, but that isn't what is contemplated in this scenario which has turned into the discussion from hell.

Of course I yield to any know it alls like MTV who know better.

ZPilot wrote:I was not expecting the _ here.

So many of you said: "There are other ways"....without following up with a realistic example.

"Go buy a plane" you say...
As I already mentioned, to buy a plane with a loan, you have to have it insured. An insurance company will NOT insure you to fly floats with 7 - 10 hours. Period. Are they going to insure someone with a dripping wet SES rating? No.
Do I, like most of you, have $85,000 (+\- $20,000) in cash to blow on a plane so I don't have to pay insurance? No.

"Hang out somewhere and do some fueling for fun...maybe they'll let you fly"
...yeah....ok, look, I am not 16 anymore. I work 10 to 12 hours a day, 5 days a week, and volunteer on the 6th day, and rest on the 7th. Besides, if you were a 135 operator or private owner of an airplane, would you let a stranger jump in your plane whom is not insurable...No, you wouldn't.

Up here in Alaska, they want 500 hours on floats. There are no other domestic SES jobs that will hire an individual with less than a couple hundred hours. It is a different story in Canada. I hear they'll put you in a Beaver with a dripping wet rating, yet, I have no evidence to back that up.

What am I doing to try to build up my SES time?
A- I joined the CAP up here. If I am lucky, I will get 10 hours in the amphib Beaver this summer...but, only if I am lucky.
B- I plan on flying Adventure Seaplane's seaplane this fall from Minnesota to Florida. It will cost me a small fortune which I can't (shouldn't really afford), but I will do it anyways.
C- I plan on getting my CFI reinstated this fall.

I might, if I am lucky, end up with 50 hours SES total by the end of the year, and that's after spending thousands of $ that I don't have.

Over the last few months, I have been begging the community to share ideas on how to get some SES hours. Most of you were silent. However, when I call someone else out, I get this _.


I was hoping that the seaplane community was not like what I was fearing, but it is:
Older wealthy folks that have the cash to just outright buy an airplane and talk-down to those trying to get their SES hours.
Everyone at some point has to have their first hour of instructing another pilot on float flying. Don't you forget where you came from


ZP

Do you really think the hundreds if not thousands of float plane fliers in Alaska are rich old farts? How long have you been up here, 'bout two seconds?

Nobody is giving you shit. They've given you very reasonable advice. They've received shit from you in return.

It seems like this kind of got ugly in here... I hope it doesn't go the way the cessna 170 forum went, but I try and stay a casual observer who checks the forum about 300 times a day.

Anyway, as far as buying a plane... I bought my plane (a 170A) with 0 hours logged after my tailwheel endorsement and the tailwheel time was all I logged after getting my PPL. I bought because I find too much bullshit in renting. My payments are much less than my car payment or truck payment, though the maintenance is a little bit more. I have marginal credit at best, but Alaska USA FCU was happy to work with me on the loan after I jumped through insurance loops.

That brings me to throw in my 2 cents.

Although your experience may be different, here is what Avemco told me about insuring my purchase. Because I had such low time flying period, they required that I log 10 hours in that specific aircraft (not time in type, it had to be that specific plane) as dual instruction and a log book entry after the fact signing me off to fly the plane solo. It wasn't until I did that that I was allowed to fly the plane. One of the things I wanted in an aircraft was float rigging already on it, and when I was looking for planes I felt this was important. I asked Avemco about the difference in insurance if the plane was float equipped and the rep that I spoke to stated that the insurance requirements were virtually identical, with hours logged by a qualified instructor (this is separate from holding a SES of course) as a prerequisite of flying the aircraft.

I do not and will not claim to know anything about anything about flying or backcountry flying or anything like this. I do not want to be on either side of any quarrel that might exist. I am an extremely low hour pilot-owner (120 hours) who is here to learn. If there is one thing that I have discovered about pilots, its that we are all right. No matter what we say or who we are talking to, we are type "A" personalities which prohibits us from being wrong.

I just want to share my experience because it reads to me like ownership would be your best route to go. I would strongly suggest going by Arctic Flyers at Lake Hood and talking to Heidi Reuss. Wonderful lady, extremely knowledgeable, and one of my biggest influences towards buying instead of renting. And she trains in a float equipped Taylorcraft.

My (neutral) 2 cents.

Matt

JJBAKER wrote:Whatever... [Deleted by JJB]

Yuck, Mike.

That was sure manly.......edit your post and replace it with a cute little picture. What ever credibility you may have had in your response to MTV kinda just went out the window.

Hafast wrote:That was sure manly.......edit your post and replace it with a cute little picture. What ever credibility you may have had in your response to MTV kinda just went out the window.

\\

I digress and have deleted the picture and all other responses which might have offended.
My apologies to OP for having responded to your post, triggering this mess. I could have just let it go, and probably should have.
With that ship having sailed, good luck in your endeavor and have a happy Sunday.

ZP,

As Once and Future noted, you've been given sound advice. A few points:

1) the standard response in Alaska to anyone who enquires about a job is that you have to have 500 hours Alaska time for insurance purposes. I suspect the seaplane operators may vary that tune by substituting "500 hours SES time". The point, however, is that these requirements are waived pretty frequently. How else do you think the new to Alaska guys wind up flying 207s out of Bethel? You have to be in the right place at the right time, as in working for a company....or??

2) the seaplane time is a more difficult issue, no doubt. On the other hand, buying a simple seaplane IS in fact, typically the way most folks get that precious SES time. And, as has been pointed out by me, Gump and now 907, this basic seaplane doesn't have to cost a fortune. My current ride isn't worth anywhere near your estimate of $85 K, though it's not on floats these days. Even if it were on floats, it wouldn't be worth that, and I paid a LOT less for it. I started flying seaplanes commercially with right around 50 hours SES. Oh, yeah, and a pretty extensive checkout, and provisions that I would not carry passengers till I had 200 PIC in SES. And, since I was doing law enforcement work mostly at the time, that worked for me.

3) Some folks seem to think the world is just a collection of assholes who are out to get them. Take the attitude that you CAN do stuff, figure out HOW to do stuff, then DO IT, and life will be a lot brighter.

4) Your strategy to build SES hours may work fine. CAP, depending on the squadron, may offer some flight time, with adult supervision, AND you can learn something from the person in the other seat while logging time.....which is golden. But, again, consider finding a little airplane to buy. Or, find someone to partner with who also needs SES time, and buy a plane together. A relative of mine was 35 and wanted to fly for the airlines. He and three or four others went together and bought an older Piper twin to build multi engine time. After they'd all put in enough time in that airplane, they sold it....for the same price they'd paid. That guy is an Alaska Air captain now.

5) One thing that many folks fail to recognize is that ALL seaplane operations amount to off airport operations. There's no white stripe, there's no side markings, there may in fact be a big log right in the middle of your runway. It's up to YOU to decide which direction the wind is blowing, and how hard. And, a moment's inattention can result in swimming lessons.

Seaplane flying is NOT that hard, but there are just a lot of little ways it can bite you. Like docking in a wind. That can be sporty. Learning the skills and where the pitfalls lie so you can avoid them takes a little time, but it is NOT insurmountable. I'm sure not rich, never have been and never will be.

Finally, leave your attitude at home. Nobody's out to get you or any other new pilot trying to get their foot in the door. One of the biggest factors for getting hired is in fact, a very positive attitude. Bring that one to the task and you'll be surprised sometimes what doors open.

Getting that dream job can be a very frustrating experience. It took me over four years with the outfit I worked for to get into an airplane cockpit, plus a couple of moves. Hang in there and be persistent and you CAN get there. But, you're going to have to do it yourself. There aren't many freebies in aviation, and there's a lotta folks out there looking to get that same job.

If I came across as "superior", my apologies.

Finally, insurance: As I noted, the fellow I'm supposed to work with next week's insurance underwriter said he just needs a statement from me in his logbook that he's competent to operate the airplane....no minimum flight time required, although, frankly, that requirement is more difficult for ME than just giving the guy ten hours dual....

But, what is ten hours of dual instruction? Is it THAT difficult to get done if you own a little airplane?

Hell, it's all hard. It's aviation.

MTV

Rob wrote: What part of 'the system' has let you down? I guess I don't understand why people think that their lack of fore thought (read: didn't save or earn enough to fly) constitutes a failure in 'the system' ?

Working on a career path for the last 15 years and getting laid off, finding myself unemployable during the recession, and burning through my savings I suppose constitutes a lack of fore thought.

I am simply venting my frustration of the "system" that insurance companies control. It seems that once you obtain your SES rating, you're SOL. It just seems like a chicken & egg problem to me. An individual like myself would love to purchase an airplane to build time in. However, I can't because I can't get a loan on an aircraft because I can't get insured. That's all I am saying.

Nonetheless, thanks everyone for their replies. I came off gruff because I was rubbed the wrong way a couple of times there.

Now I've switched gears and I am looking for the cheapest little 'ol seaplanes out there. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like the entry market seaplane will cost me roughly $40k. This is according to what I've seen at Barnstormers, Controller, Trade-a-Plane and others. Some of these examples will require an engine overhaul soon or an expensive wing spar AD. Additionally, I suppose it will be at least a couple of years before I can save up $40k in cash. If anyone has any creative ideas about obtaining such an airplane without a loan, I am all ears! (In other words, how risky is it to buy such an aircraft with a loan on wheels, and buy floats on the side?)

I have read the recent thread here about a good starter airplane, and thus, I won't revisit that topic in the wrong thread (here).

Have a great week everyone.

Well, the original type certificate for a Cessna 140 includes a factory installed float kit as an option. Most of the 140s I have seen can run you in the range of $20k-$25k with 550 and under hours (there are 4 on barnstormers now), but I am unsure if any of these have the kit. Like I said before, Alaska USA FCU did my loan with 10% down on a 15 year note to keep the payments reasonable. The 140 typically rides on Edo 1650s, which I have seen anywhere from $4500 to $11000 for a really nice set.

It's a great way to go if you are only needing a training rig. Buy it on wheels and build the time as a CFI (there is one in Birchwood that trains in a Cessna 120 - very closely related plane) and then when you are ready buy the floats.

There is a VERY decent 90 hp 7EC Champ near me for sale for $26 K. Been for sale for that price for over a year. Think he might take less? I do. And, this is NOT a beater. Add a set of floats for anywhere from $6 K to $9K and you've got not just a learning platform, but a damn nice little float plane.

Lots of taylorcrafts out there for less than $20 K.

As I noted earlier, I'll bet you CAN get insurance if you push the right button. Look at the Seaplane Pilot's Association website and give their insurance carrier a call--Falcon. I'd bet they'll tell you to get 10 hours dual in the plane of your choice, and they'll insure you.

Lots of small credit unions insure on light aircraft. Call the Red River Bank in Halstad, MN--they loan on lots of airplanes. There are places that'll do this.

Now, I can sympathize with your not wanting to go in debt TOO far in this whole operation, but....

Good luck, try to keep a positive attitude on this, even though it's hard, and keep banging at it. I've got students that are getting hired regularly....sometimes after a long "apprenticeship", but the end result is what you're concerned about.

I don't know what your situation is, since you say you're furloughed. Maybe find an air taxi that needs a ramp rat, fueler, or?? and has airplanes, take ANY job to pay some bills, and work your way in.

Good luck.

MTV

SES is a SES
I do not think it needs to be a certified airplane to be logging SES time. If it has an N# you can log the time.
Look out of the box a little!!

There are lots of experimental's out there that have floats and will out fly any of the heavy 65-85 hp certified aircraft.
A Challenger on full lotus floats with a 85hp is a great performer.

If you can find an Aircam, one just sold for 49K on barnstormers, you could have a bunch of MES time!!

$.02
GT

Thanks for the replies everyone.

During my casual online shopping, I tend to look for aircraft that are already paired with floats. It seems it would be difficult to pair a 50 year old airplane with some floats...as far as rigging is concerned. Besides, many companies that made the floats are now defunct. I think the notable exception to this would be the Cessna 180/185 aircraft and floats.

MTV-
If you're saying that an insurance company will indeed insure me and my seaplane with only 7 hours SES logged, then...I need to eat my own words earlier in this thread. I was under the impression that I would have to somehow come up with 50+ hours logged before an insurance company would insure me and the aircraft.

With that said, roadblocks are falling for me when it comes to building time and aircraft ownership. There are many more possibilities as far as a starter aircraft if I don't have to buy my first one with cash.

As MTV mentioned earlier, a Champ would be great fun. I think if I find a Citabria, I would have a ton of fun. I could do some aerobatics in the off-season.

What are the most & least friendly starter seaplanes as far as insurance coverage goes?

I know Maules are expensive insurance-wise.

J-3 and Champs seem to be priced somewhat at a premium lately due to the collector factor.

If I were looking I would target Taylorcrafts, Chiefs, J-4s, Cessna 120/140. Maybe an experimental like mentioned above.

I think by coincidence the market has temporarily dried up on small float planes. As recently as last month there were several tcrafts and Chiefs on floats, around Barnstormers and the like.

Don't forget Alaskalist.