Well, I think Zane is being quite tolerant with me so far. I led the discussion of AOPA insurance astray on another thread. Started an argument (OK, discussion) with Cary.
I am going to start this separate thread to see what people think. Two things worry me about the FAR's and cost sharing. What is the real definition and how will the courts define it when big dollars are at stake? It is my understanding that the FAA desires balance. It is not looked upon favorably to fly to lunch and charge your buddy $99 for his burger run and $1 for yours.
In the real world though... it is hard to evenly split the EXACT cost of a flight between two parties. Do we include oil? Do we include the amortized cost of the NAV subscription used to find the airport? Ramp fee at the FBO and on and on.
If your buddy dies as a result of your flight, his widow is taking you right to civil court. Your insurance company will be right there examining in detail what dollars changed hands. Then some judge is perfectly in his rights to grant summary judgment to said insurance company, and they walk away with their hard earned profit. You, if alive will lose much. Your widow, if you don't make it... will lose more. So, how do we safely interpret the regs to avoid peril?

I've gone with consumables for that flight, and direct costs. Fuel, oil burned you could argue for I guess (especially in a thirsty old radial), landing or parking fees etc. Things like a maintenance reserve, engine overhaul levelized cost, tire wear, depreciation of your plane if new, I would not include.

If you popped a tire on the flight and needed it replaced, I guess there could be an argument for that, but I would prorate it to half of the remaining life.

I took a prebuy flight, and the guy tried to charge me for a maintenance reserve he had set up for the partnership. I did pay for gas, but I refused this as in my mind, it is not part of the costs directly related to that flight, and is my view, illegal (also, the guy should have mentioned that beforehand if he was looking for money for flights).

Also, I am not a lawyer in any sense. But I am comfortable living with the above.

I never ask someone to pay for riding in my airplane. If they ask "How much would you charge...", my reply is "I can not charge you to ride, that would be a commercial operation and my insurance company would not cover any claim should one happen. But, you and I can share the expense, if you want to". If they offer more than half the cost of the fuel and oil, I say, "Thats too much", and give them some back.

FAR 61.113:

blah blah
c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.

Remember in this discussion that we're talking about 2 separate things, what the FAA says is OK and what your insurance company says is OK. Although one or the other might say that what you're doing is OK and non-commercial, the other might not agree--you have to read the terms of the FARs to determine what the FARs say, and you have to read the terms of your insurance contract to determine what the insurance coverage is.

If what you propose to do doesn't seem to clearly fit the FARs, then there are a bunch of General Counsel opinions and NTSB findings which may clarify, and if not, you can request the General Counsel's office to give you a "reading". There will be a time delay, sometimes measured in months, so you don't want to wait until the last minute. However, with the dawn of the Pilots Bill of Rights, the General Counsel's opinions are no longer presumptively "the law" but are instead to be given some weight, as are the determinations of all government agencies. And no, you can't ask the FSDO--the opinions of the FAA Inspectors carry absolutely no official weight, at all.

If what you propose to do doesn't clearly fit the language of your policy, you can request the insurance company to give you a "reading"--and make sure it's in writing, from the company itself. Just like the opinion of Inspectors carries no weight in an FAA enforcement action, the opinion of agents and other functionaries of the insurance company carries no weight in a court of law--but the opinion of some apparent officer on the letterhead of the company does.

Cary

Back in the '70s I was in college skipping classes to fly for the skydiving team. Nothing more was needed than a ppl and passing the check out to the base operators satisfaction. I was the one donating MY time to fly the plane. Nobody looked at it as compensation for me to receive time to log for free. They do now. Don't know if the wording itself or interp of the rule changed but the actual cost of my cutting college classes that I paid for was a net loss to me compared to the value of the flying I did for the same college.

I never charge anyone for a ride or share expense with a passenger, but nothing is wrong with them taking you to dinner afterward if they choose, or them showing appreciation in other ways. You pay the full cost of the ride and they are showing appreciation later. As long as you both show up for dinner later, that means nobody died and nobody gets sued. Its the preride-negotiated before dinner expense sharing that is the problem with the insurance company. If some one doesn't make it back for dinner obviously there would be no appreciation shown and the ride is free by all accounts.

Maybe if any "splitting" of costs were done after the flight it might reduce this kind of exposure to abuse by lawyers and insurance companies and the judicial system.

Not to say that there are not people out there charging more than their fair share of a flight, but I had a friend that needed to get to his plane a couple hundred miles away offered to buy my fuel to take him there. When we got there he topped my tanks and it wasn't cheap, put me up at his vacation house on the lake, I bought him dinner, he took my wife and I out on the lake on his pontoon boat.

So what part of the split makes this a commercial flight the fuel or the ride on his pontoon boat?

The FAA would say the fuel.

Cary

I don't charge anyone but I do ask for fuel cost , if there so inclined . It's more of a request than demand. I enjoy flying my airplane - but can't really justify taking a long trip for the hell of it. I'm a A&P / I.A and do charge for my services at my hanger or "on the road" to various jobs . I like to think of it as a paid R&R for the various things I do - with flying to from the job. YMMV

Glidergeek wrote:Maybe if any "splitting" of costs were done after the flight it might reduce this kind of exposure to abuse by lawyers and insurance companies and the judicial system.

I was thinking the same thing Russ.

Wait until the plane is parked in the hangar or tied down after the flight to accept any funds from passengers.

Wait until the plane is parked in the hangar or tied down after the flight to accept any funds from passengers.

That probably solves the insurance question, since presumably you got to the hangar safely. But it doesn't solve the FAA issues, if they were to get wind of an "illegal charter".

Cary

If the pilot pays fuel with his own card and then later after the flight, out of appreciation or whatever, the passenger gives him money, chalk or marbles, how is that a charter?

dirtstrip wrote:If the pilot pays fuel with his own card and then later after the flight, out of appreciation or whatever, the passenger gives him money, chalk or marbles, how is that a charter?

Ya if you're haulin a $1000 hooker and the fuel is only $100 and she wants to donate?

Glidergeek wrote:

dirtstrip wrote:If the pilot pays fuel with his own card and then later after the flight, out of appreciation or whatever, the passenger gives him money, chalk or marbles, how is that a charter?

Ya if you're haulin a $1000 hooker and the fuel is only $100 and she wants to donate?

Do I declare the $100 fuel reimbursement as income or the $900 that I came out ahead on this venture. Wheres the IRS on this one and is this legal only in Nevada?

I love this state (Nevada)

How hard is it to upgrade to a non-IFR & non-Multi commercial ticket? Not hard at all... most PPL types have the requisite hours so all that is needed is a little study and practice to fly manuvers a little tighter along with a checkride. Probably wouldn't hurt most folks from a proficiency standpoint either.

For expense sharing would that solve the problem, or does it open up a whole new can of worms?

Here's a link to the FAA Chief Counsel Opinions on this topic: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/hea ... sIndex.cfm

They are pretty clear on what's pro rata sharing.

Let someone buy you dinner later, and I'm guessing that if whoever bought you dinner later got a little irritated with you, he'd (or she if the hooker) might be inclined to call the FAA. You'd be hosed in a heartbeat, cause it'd be your word against theirs....

Maybe.

MTV

I've been known to be wrong before, but if you would like to be compensated for taking someone flying, why wouldn't you spend the money on your commercial ticket and hang your shingle outside your door?

I've never taken anyone for a flight where I would have expected or accepted ANY compensation. I like to take people flying for the fun of flying. If you think it costs too much to do it out the goodness of your heart, stay on the ground. Me? I'm going flying and I've always got an open free seat.

IMO

Brent

A long, long time ago, the president of the very small company I worked for would have company events that we would fly to. One or two CFIs, that taught him would fly, he would fly, and one or two others in this small company (15) with PPLs would fly. I expect the president paid for all plane rentals but I don't know.

The most we were allowed to do in appreciation is not drink during stops prior to our destination because the pilots couldn't.

If somebody insists on paying for lunch, I will accept, but I am more than happy to split the bill in an effort to return all the wonderful times that I experienced. I really don't want to expose my guests to the true costs, and if I can fly another pilot to a destination to pick up a part or his plane, I won't accept anything because it gives me so much satisfaction to be able to do that.

My two cents

cowpilot wrote:I've been known to be wrong before, but if you would like to be compensated for taking someone flying, why wouldn't you spend the money on your commercial ticket and hang your shingle outside your door?

I've never taken anyone for a flight where I would have expected or accepted ANY compensation. I like to take people flying for the fun of flying. If you think it costs too much to do it out the goodness of your heart, stay on the ground. Me? I'm going flying and I've always got an open free seat.

IMO

Brent

Then that opens a whole nuther door yes? you need to insure your plane for commercial ops. I would bet the insurance rates are substantially more and then 100 hr inspections, ect.