Anyone have any more info on this? Thoughts?

I know we will have to wait for the NTSB report. I have heard the winds can get kinda wicked at Angel Fire, especially with the pass right to the west.



https://www.kob.com/albuquerque-news/tw ... h/5529586/

https://www.taosnews.com/stories/airpla ... fire,60157

ShadowAviator wrote:Anyone have any more info on this? Thoughts?

I know we will have to wait for the NTSB report. I have heard the winds can get kinda wicked at Angel Fire, especially with the pass right to the west.



https://www.kob.com/albuquerque-news/tw ... h/5529586/

https://www.taosnews.com/stories/airpla ... fire,60157

Well, that Katz “expert” quoted in the second article is a real peach. Good grief! How do journalists find dumb asses like that guy?

MTV

mtv wrote:
Well, that Katz “expert” quoted in the second article is a real peach. Good grief! How do journalists find dumb asses like that guy?

MTV

I thought the same thing.

ShadowAviator wrote:

mtv wrote:
Well, that Katz “expert” quoted in the second article is a real peach. Good grief! How do journalists find dumb asses like that guy?

MTV

I thought the same thing.

There are, unfortunately, some pilots who offer their "expertise" just a little too freely.

That being said, if indeed the winds were a 30 knot direct crosswind as one of the comments said, that's a whole lot of wind. When I returned to Laramie shortly after leaving the USAF with the ink still wet on my pilot license, and following the advice of the DE I'd flown with in Anchorage, I learned to fly in really stiff crosswinds up to 30 knots--and that's a real handful in a 172, with a demonstrated crosswind capability of 17 knots. Taking off or landing in that kind of wind requires a pilot to be on his/her A game, in any light GA airplane. I've done it many times since that lesson in 1973 in a variety of different airplanes, but I prefer not to.

But that doesn't make the flight "doomed from the start", as stated by the august Mr. Katz. That means that the pilot needed to be at his best, and the airplane had to be operating well. Until the investigation is completed, we (and Katz) don't know if it was a piloting problem or a mechanical problem, or perhaps both.

Cary

Hey there guys...I live full-time in Angel Fire and keep my Saratoga hangared at the airport here. Of course the accidents get reported, but no one ever talks much about the close-calls, which happen all the time around here. You see people clearing trees with 50 feet of clearance a mile past the departure end of runway 17. After this last crash, I decided it was time to heed the advice I have always given my son - "if you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem". I put together this video to hopefully help educate folks wanting to fly in-and-out of here. I know it isn't "backcountry" flying (especially with an 8900 x 100 runway), but it is definitely mountain flying.

Here is the link to the video. Your thoughts on it are appreciated. I would love to get the guys from BoldMethod or AOPA help me "professionalize" this a bit, but I know that is a long-shot.

https://youtu.be/AmrAX7tSvvQ



Spencer Hamons
Angel Fire, NM
N624DP - Piper Turbo Saratoga

Absolutely spectacular educational video Spencer, very generous of you!

Good video. I wouldn't worry about how professional it is. It gets the point across, and thats what matters.

I like your point about how mountain flying with a big paved runway is still mountain flying. When we are out playing in the backcountry, we are pretty focused. Sometimes we may find ourselves a little too relaxed when we go back to big pavement runways.

Fighting those downdrafts would be hard even in a high performance plane. Relying on horsepower only gets you so far (not saying that was the cause of the crash, just a side point).

At around .6 miles to the crash, and assuming ground speed was 70 or 80 mph, things happened fast.

As a fellow Kansas pilot, he probably knew how to deal with wind. However, out here it usually doesn't go up or down, just sideways.

I suppose, like most accidents, its just a combination of factors. Downdrafts, high elevation, rising terrain, etc.

Very well done and generous of you. I don't think I recall seeing anything like this before, done by a local pilot, not a flight school and not an organization. Good on you!

I've stopped there once or twice when homeward bound on a long cross country in a Cirrus. That's a NA 310 HP and it required careful planning prior to departure.

Pierre

Excellent video Spencer. I teach takeoff down drainage where practicable and using ridge lift to go another way. I'm glad you mentioned prevailing west winds. Without the ridge lift east of the field, all the little airplanes I flew in New Mexico would generally have to go over the dam and down the Cimarron River. With good prevailing westerly winds, multiple ridge runs, back and forth, should make climbing to bigger airplane altitude possible. Continuing the ridge ride south or north can then work safely. The lack of good valley ridge systems into the mountains west is constricting. It would be nice if Rio Fernando de Taos drained the southwest side of your valley.

Do most airplanes there stay in low ground effect to near cruise airspeed? 17 in a low powered airplane doesn't look as safe as 35 with west wind. Early climb would give up a lot of free zoom reserve for little altitude gain. I understand that cruise in your Saratoga would get you to the three little mounds quicker than cruise in a 172.

Thanks for the comments....I really appreciate it.

Most of the planes stay in ground effect, but only about 40-50 percent mean to. The other 50-60 stay in ground effect because they are too heavy and that is about all the flying they will do. You are right, 35 is the safer bet. When I moved up from my Cherokee 180 to my Saratoga, the one thing my wife and I would not budge on was the turbo...we HAD to have it. I have not regretted that move whatsoever.

The most amazing thing to me is how rout the behavior is of some pilots...it is if they just lose the ability to critically think. Twice since I have been flying out of Angel Fire full time I have been at the airport when someone enters the downwind (pattern altitude 9400) for landing. You hear the prop go full, and about 5 seconds later you hear the engine die. Twice we were able to get on the radio and tell them to pull the mixture back and sure enough - the engine restarted. Once, we weren't able to get to the radio fast enough, and the guy landed dead stick (safely). Two were from Texas, one from Oklahoma. The checklist said "FULL RICH", so that is what they did...no thought to the situation whatsoever. It was because of this that I decided to err on the side to too much information in the video rather than trying to compress it, particularly with that being my target audience.

Great comments...let me know if you come into Angel Fire anytime soon, I'll buy you a beer.

Spencer Hamons
Angel Fire, NM
N624DP

Thanks Pierre, I appreciate the comments.

Next time you plan on coming through, message me and I'll meet you down at the airport if I am in town.

Spencer Hamons
Angel Fire, NM
N624DP

I think you are correct...like most accidents, a number of factors come together with a catastrophic result.

I have seen some local security camera footage (not public), and it is really hard to tell, but it doesn't look like they had max lift flaps in, and you could tell they were struggling. Of course, nose up attitude and failing to climb more than about 50 - 75 feet a half-mile past the end of the runway could be a number of things (or a combination)...heavy, slow, downdraft, bad configuration, etc. Was sad to see, but my only hope is that the video will help at least one person try it differently.

If you come through Angel Fire anytime, message me and I'll meet you. If you are hanging for a while, I'll buy you a beer.

Spencer Hamons
Angel Fire, NM
N624DP

Thank you Marcus, appreciate you watching it. I only hope it helps at least one pilot.

Spencer

Spencer,

That was a fantastic video! Very informative and very well done. That video, if watched by those who should watch it WILL save lives. Good on you sir!

Kurt

Sorry, double post

Really great and informative video.

I learnt to fly at sea level and my first experiences with high DAs were actually a surprise. I think that I was woefully uninformed. No amount of explanation will prepare a new pilot for the realities of less power, less lift and larger turn radii- they need to be experienced.

Thank you Kurt...I appreciate the positive reactions this is getting. Hopefully the word will get out to those who need it most.

Spencer Hamons
Angel Fire, NM
N624DP - Turbo Saratoga

Thanks for that. I had a few comments from people saying that the AOPA Mountain Flying Course should be sufficient for pilots and that an in-person mountain flying course is unnecessary. I disagree. Until you actually experience what high DA does to your performance, you only get the theory. The second it scares the hell out of you, it becomes real.

Spencer Hamons
Angel Fire, NM
N624DP - Turbo Saratoga

You say that you "are not an instructor." But I certainly learned a few things from your video. So, you ARE an instructor (and a good one), just not a CFI! You should become one.

Excellent video and thank you for the work that you put into it.

One of the things I like about flying in the backcountry is that you learn to analyze the area and plan around the terrain.

You don't normally fly big rectangular patterns, rather you adjust your approaches to fit each airstrip. It almost seems that no two strips have the same approach. You always look for rising terrain, downdrafts, etc. It can help keep you sharp.

My 150hp 172 teaches the DA lesson pretty well. I took off from Granby, CO a little before noon. I think DA was around 11,000 or somewhere around there. With just me, gear, and 3/4 fuel, I used roughly 1700ft of paved runway before the wheels left the ground. Then it was just a relaxing 200-300 fpm climb to try to make the pass. You learn patience pretty quick.