contactflying wrote:Math and POH are only a beginning, and can certainly help make the decision to wait until better conditions. Mistakes will be made, however. If we use the basic low ground effect takeoff on all but ITO, we will have the extra low ground effect energy when things don't go as math and POH say they will. Aircraft fly and accelerate much quicker in low ground effect.

When taking off downhill or spraying downhill, it is hard to stay in low, effective ground effect. This is especially true when there are obstructions at the end of the landing zone or spray run. This, however, may be the very place where we most need the extra energy of low ground effect.

I have used the low ground effect takeoff for all takeoffs, except ITOs, for the last 35 years. Only a few times has it saved my life. I still believe it is worth it.

lesuther wrote:Very sad.

I've had issues coming out of the strip twice. The first time was as a passenger flying with one of the most experienced 135 pilots back there. We took off light in a 185 and ended up dodging terrain for a good long 15 seconds or more. He had left a plane on the valley floor years before in the same area. The second time was a few years later and I was flying a far less capable plane, and had 600+ feet under me that turned into something on the order of 50 feet in just a few seconds and stayed that way for quite a while. The common factor was stronger upper winds at the ridgetops.

Nobody knows what happened, and conditions may have been very different. It would be interesting to know if anyone else has had a similar experience at this strip or the others in tbe canyon in the past. I just wish everyone could make it back home.

whee wrote:I'm going to get flamed for this. It's April in Idaho, it's not like it gets hot. 6958 isn't that high of DA for the ID backcountry and I'd imagine the guy flew into Loon a fair amount since he owns the lodge. Being loaded up heavy with equipment and people very well could have been the problem. He also could have done everything right and lost the engine on departure or had some other failure.

Scolopax wrote:That's absolutely true Whee. I was not implying that I know anything about what happened, just analyzing the accident with what info is available. If there was an engine failure on takeoff, we will possibly never know. The point in looking at the numbers is just to see what kind of room for error they might have had in hopes that we can all learn from the tragedy.

whee wrote:

Scolopax wrote:That's absolutely true Whee. I was not implying that I know anything about what happened, just analyzing the accident with what info is available. If there was an engine failure on takeoff, we will possibly never know. The point in looking at the numbers is just to see what kind of room for error they might have had in hopes that we can all learn from the tragedy.

That wasn't directed at you Scolopax. I was going to run the numbers too but you beat me too it. There wasn't any margin by the numbers you shared but we know how the book isn't always accurate. It seemed everyone was focused on what the pilot did wrong and I just wanted to point out that maybe he did nothing wrong and more shit hit the fan than could be dealt with. An engine out coming out of Loon would be deadly but so would being too heavy. I have no experience in a 210 but it seems like unless he was loaded down with a bunch of equipment he should have been able to make it out of there. Mackay isn't Challis and Challis isn't Upper Loon but if they were leaving at 1:30pm that is the same time we were leaving Mackay. The weather was real nice for flying where I was and Challis was reporting the same. I'd wager Loon was just as good but since we weren't there I guess we'll never know for sure.

idair wrote:What time of the day were these at?

contactflying wrote:At Bruce Meadows, there was plenty of grassy terrain prior to the trees on the hill. He could have rudder turned until pointed back down hill, if he had stayed in low ground effect.

contactflying wrote:Faster will defeat downdraft better than higher and slower. If we don't pull back on the stick, we can turn at whatever bank is necessary to stay in the drainage.

jomac wrote:Good points whee...its all possible...i know in my turbo 182 if u over boost it, u then have some pretty good issues as well...the 210 was a T i believe....guess we really dont know, and guess it dont much matter as we lost some pretty good guys...so sorry for all involved's losses....

NTSB Identification: WPR15FA143
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Friday, April 10, 2015 in Challis, ID
Aircraft: CESSNA T210M, registration: N732YQ
Injuries: 4 Fatal.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. NTSB investigators either traveled in support of this investigation or conducted a significant amount of investigative work without any travel, and used data obtained from various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.
On April 10, 2015 about 1315 mountain daylight time, a Cessna Centurion T210M, N732YQ, collided with trees shortly after departing from Upper Loon Creek USFS Airport located in the Salmon-Challis National Forest near Challis, Idaho. The pilot, who was the registered owner, was operating the airplane under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 91. The private pilot and three passengers sustained fatal injuries; the airplane sustained substantial damage. The personal cross-country flight was originating from Upper Loon Creek with a planned destination of Driggs-Reed Memorial Airport, Driggs, Idaho. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan had been filed.

The pilot had a solar energy system installed on his residence in the Driggs area and wanted the same solar company, Creative Energies, to assess if it was possible to do a similar installation at his private residence at Diamond D Ranch, where he was a partial owner. The pilot had been staying in Driggs for several days and had planned to take a few of the Creative Energies employees to the ranch to perform an evaluation of the solar installation possibilities. Earlier in the week, he notified the ranch manager that he intended on flying into Upper Loon Creek, located about two miles downstream from the ranch on a northeasterly heading. During the winter, the ranch is only practically accessible by flying into the airport.

The pilot and three passengers departed from Driggs with the airplane loaded with full fuel in the wing tanks. After completing the approximate 170 nautical mile (nm) cross-country flight, the airplane landed at Upper Loon Creek. The solar employees performed their assessment and they all left the ranch about 1300 at which time the pilot told the ranch personnel that he wanted to depart before the wind picked up (the wind at the ranch was about 5 mph). There were no witnesses to the accident, nor did anyone at the ranch hear the airplane depart.

The accident site was located partially submerged in the shallow creek; the fuselage along with a majority of the wing skin was consumed by fire. Situated on the relatively level terrain, the airplane came to rest inverted and the debris path was oriented on a 080-degree magnetic heading. The main wreckage, which consisted of a majority of the airframe and engine, was located about 600 feet from the fence located at the end of runway 040 on a heading of 060 degrees. The runway and first identified impact marks were located on a raised plateau about 40 feet higher than the river.

The first identified impact point consisted of broken tree limbs located about 170 feet northeast from the center of the fence and about 430 feet south west of the main wreckage. The first tree impacted was identified by it having a junction where two separate branches forked upward, both of which had fresh cuts around the 50 foot level. The tree was located in line with the far right side of the fence, which was about 100 feet east of an extended runway centerline. There were numerous broken branches along the debris field to the main wreckage. The nose wheel was located about 100 feet from the first tree and remained on the plateau. The outboard half of the left horizontal stabilizer was found in the river around the same length down the debris field as the nose landing gear. The leading edge was deformed aft about 1 foot creating an accordion appearance, with the aluminum skin folded over on itself. This u-shaped divot was about 10 inches in diameter and similar in shape and size to that of a landing gear wheel.

The wreckage was recovered for further examination.