Backcountry Pilot • Crash Video

Crash Video

Debrief, share, and hopefully learn from the mistakes of others.
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Re: Crash Video

Zzz wrote:
MAU MAU wrote:I know Zane does not like links to other sites


Where did you read that?

Also, do you ever wonder who designed the maulepilots.org forum header?


I wrote this because I posted a link to one of my trip reports from maulepilots.org and you asked me to only post full stories which is understandable.

We all know you designed the maulepilots.org site because it says so at the bottom of the page, and more importantly, thank you for doing so.

Now back to the wonderful world of carburetor ice.................
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Re: Crash Video

One page from the previously posted link. Any thoughts on this?

There are four operational regimes in which carb ice can be a problem—in order of frequency of occurrence, they are:

A) Startup
B) Take-off and climb
C) Cruise
D) Power reduction for landing

Yes, the *least likely* time to encounter carb ice is on the power reduction to land! Let's examine each of these scenarios and discuss why.

A) On the initial startup of the day: You are dealing with a cold engine and cold carburetor body and all of a sudden it's sucking air through the venturi. When the OAT and humidity are right--BINGO, carb ice. As a result, it is important to check that the carb heat is working BEFORE take-off (during the run up). The purpose of this carb heat application is two-fold... First to be sure the mechanism is working and second, to be
certain there is no ice present in the carburetor. If there is no ice present, there will be a drop in power as noted in rpm drop as the heated air enters the carburetor, thereby reducing the number of air molecules available for combustion. If there is ice present from the startup, there will be an increase in rpm as the ice is cleared from the carburetor and proper power is restored.

B) During high power application during take-off, there is a maximum flow of air through the carburetor which creates the greatest temperature drop across the venturi. Carb Ice can develop as a result.

C) During cruise, as the aircraft changes climates, OATs change, humidity changes, etc. and the engine is often WOT, the venturi again is having it's maximum temperature drop for the given situation.

D) During the power reduction to land, there is the least chance of developing carb ice! There is the lowest power being applied and, therefore, the lowest temperature drop across the venturi!

Now, that understood, why do we apply Carb heat as a matter of routine during the least-likely phase of flight?

The answer is simple. Before take-off we have checked the carb heat and know the condition of the carburetor before applying power. During take-off and climb we will know if ice begins to develop as we will see a power loss as the ice builds up. In cruise, we will also see a power loss as ice forms in the carburetor.

It is during the low power condition of preparing to land, that if ice builds up, we will have no way of knowing it. The power is already low and in some cases the engine is not producing any thrust at all. If the carburetor ices up and we need to go around, we will be unpleasantly surprised as we push the throttle forward and we continue to descend!

Soooooo, in the event of an urgent need for power, add throttle, the engine will come to your aid since there is Carb heat ON and no ice present, THEN push the carb heat in (off) to let the engine attain maximum power. It is common to see pilots push the carb heat in, then add power. I think this is not optimal. If the atmospheric condition is conducive to the formation of carb ice, turning the carb heat off, then adding power is a suboptimal idea... remember, the second most frequent time to encounter carb ice is during a high power application!

My recommendation is to add power, then carb heat OFF. That way, if you encounter carb ice as you need to go around, at least you'll already be developing power and know it. That likely scenario is power IN, carb heat off, power loss as ice then develops, then carb heat back ON--you'll make the go-around. If you push the carb heat in first and the conditions are right for ice formation, the likely scenario is Carb heat OFF, power in,
CARB ICE, power loss before you even get any....... and just when you don't need that headache! There is a reasonable argument for doing it either way.

MANY are now using Carb heat in cruise to improve fuel vaporization and improve F:A balance in carbed engines. MANY are able to run smoothly LOP as a result. The side benefit is that those who are doing this end up with a carb temp above freezing where it is not possible to have carb ice at all. Something to ponder......
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Re: Crash Video

MAU MAU wrote:I wrote this because I posted a link to one of my trip reports from maulepilots.org and you asked me to only post full stories which is understandable.


Good. I hope these policies don't seem inane, and that the distinction between new thread content and relevant links is clear.
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Re: Crash Video

mtv wrote:
Troy Hamon wrote:MTV...are you saying if he immediately applied carb heat when the engine rpm dropped it still wouldn't melt it out? My reading of accident records is that usually people pull on carb heat, the problem gets worse, so they push it in then fly until the crash, rather than leaving carb heat on and waiting for the resumption in engine power. But I didn't see any statement about that in this case.


Not at all, Troy. My point was simply that the longer one waits to apply carb heat after an ice induced engine failure, the less likely the system is to be able to melt the accumulated ice. I've seen too many pilots, presented with a simulated engine failure in training, wait a looooong time before finally applying carb heat. Many go through the process of finding a potential landing site, slowing to best glide speed, THEN go through restart procedures.

Take a look at the carb heat system on your airplane. There is an air inlet, which flows air into a shroud around some part of the exhaust system, generally the muffler. To prevent overheating the exhaust system, most carb heat systems have a valve which directs the air flowing over the exhaust either into the carb inlet OR dumping that heated air out the bottom of the cowling.

With carb heat selected to "cold" the system is effectively cooling the muffler or other part of the exhaust system, which has one of the toughest job of any part of your airplane.

So, after a carb ice precipitated engine failure, if you delay application of carb heat, the very source of the heat you need to melt that ice is rapidly cooling. In the Lycoming Piston Engine Service School, I was told that the certification standard for carbureted engines was that the carb heat system has to be demonstrated to remove WORST CASE carb icing immediately after the engine was running at 75% power. The longer you wait to apply carb heat, the less residual heat there is remaining in that exhaust system to melt ice.

My point was, and is, the FIRST thing one should do after an in flight engine failure is to initiate restart procedures, including application of carb heat. The one obvious exception to that suggestion would be after an engine failure at very low altitude, where a landing is imminent.

What REALLY precipitated my earlier comment, however, was the suggestion that "residual engine heat" might remove carb heat. I suppose that under some very limited circumstances that COULD happen, but I sure wouldn't bet on it. Remember, as long as that prop is windmilling, the engine is turning over, and thus is inducting air through that carburetor venturi. This flow draws fuel through the Venturi, and the combination of cooling due to the fuel vaporizing and the drop in pressure due to the Venturi effect is what caused the ice to form in the first place. The point is, if the pilot relis on "residual engine heat" to remove that ice, a rapidly cooling engine and continued ice accretion is apt to sorely disappoint.

Sorry for the long response, but this is an important system, and is often not well understood, at least in my experience.

MTV


Late to get back to this, but thanks MTV for the response. Makes sense, and I appreciate the value of having things like this clarified. Carb heat is first on my emergency engine power loss checklist. I put it there because I didn't want to have to argue with a CFI about what order I did things in...and that is the first thing I'm going to do.
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Re: Crash Video

This was a great thread and it made me MUCH more aware of carbeurator ice.

Thanks to all that contributed!..........................Rob
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Re: Crash Video

That is some great information! I have been flying for 14 years now and never truly understood that. It makes much more sense now that I know it!

Thanks for taking the time to submit the article!

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Re: Crash Video

Mike (MTV) with all the bitter cold across the country, if the wind isn't howling and one has a heated hangar it is a great time to fly! Can you talk about when not to use carb heat such as too cold or how carb heat application can actually make things worse. I think we all could use a good review on this.

As I have always said, your writings are some of the best in all of aviation, we are so lucky to have you posting on various websites.

Thanks

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Re: Crash Video

I don't know that there is ever a reason why putting on carb heat would be a problem as a precautionary measure during a time when you are not needing full power.

There are some planes that won't operate cold very well unless carb heat is on during the warmup. I don't know why that is...I don't have that issue with my plane.
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Re: Crash Video

Thanks mike and all for the great insight in this discussion. I started the following thread a couple years ago to get info about a friend who went down in Delta Junction. The NTSB report centered on carb ice developed during a long taxi.

http://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/super-cub-accident-vicinity-of-fairbanks-8028

NTSB report and probable cause:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/GenPDF.aspx?id=ANC11FA065&rpt=fa
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20110718X53000&key=1

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