There was a take-off crash at Woodland WA a few months ago-- one occupant of the Mooney died although the aftermath photos made the crash look very survivable. Just guessing but I'd bet it was a faceplant into the panel like DonC describes. Bummer.

I remember reading briefly about this accident. Now that I'm in the middle this week of purchasing a '73 180J with regular crossover shoulder straps, I was thinking about putting in the B.A.S. system and was on the phone with Jim (B.A.S. owner) just this a.m.
Mike's account has me convinced and I'll get 'em in the plane. Thanks, Mike.

I wonder if there is a crotch strap STC'd for the 180/185 airframe? I'm thinking of the rotary buckle that already has the insert at the bottom for it.

R

Reichy wrote:I remember reading briefly about this accident. Now that I'm in the middle this week of purchasing a '73 180J with regular crossover shoulder straps, I was thinking about putting in the B.A.S. system and was on the phone with Jim (B.A.S. owner) just this a.m.
Mike's account has me convinced and I'll get 'em in the plane. Thanks, Mike.

I wonder if there is a crotch strap STC'd for the 180/185 airframe? I'm thinking of the rotary buckle that already has the insert at the bottom for it.

R

I too think that a "negative G strap" (nicer word than "crotch") would be a good idea. Problem with the 185/206 is the range of seat positions and heights, etc. It'd be tough to come up with a position and length that'd work for all.

I really cinch up my lap belts. A lot of people in cars tend to submarine under the belt, and when it cinches up tight, it breaks their backs. The Huskys all have the five point harness, which I like, but it has a fixed seat.

MTV

Get the Seaplane buckle that separates all belts when the buckle is lifted.

I'd really like to put a retractable harness on the left seat. It'll have to waint until after AD/S-B Out is resolved. I agree that the secondary impact (pilot or pax hitting th panel) has killed a lotta people. At least I've got static harnesses until after the AD/S-B mandate is met. The discussion about BAS etc is helpful.

mtv wrote:
I too think that a "negative G strap" (nicer word than "crotch") would be a good idea...

I really cinch up my lap belts. A lot of people in cars tend to submarine under the belt, and when it cinches up tight, it breaks their backs. The Huskys all have the five point harness, which I like, but it has a fixed seat.

MTV

A few years ago a pilot acquaintance told a FAA Wings seminar about a 2011 accident when his engine failed on takeoff from 2MT1 - Ryan Airstrip, east of Glacier. He was in an EAB Fly Fisher (similar to a Super Cub). Both he and his passenger were pretty banged up when his rt wing impacted a tree and the left wing resumed flying... For just a few moments. The pilot said both he and the rear seat pax "submarined" out the bottoms of their 4-point harnesses and lap belts. I think his current plane has 5-point harnesses in both seats. He also said his next takeoff from a back country strip will be in a helmet (both suffered some hard knocks and skull lacerations after the rt wing hit the tree).

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/GeneratePDF.aspx?id=WPR11LA289&rpt=fa

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/GeneratePDF.aspx?id=WPR11LA289&rpt=fi

http://dms.ntsb.gov/public/52500-52999/52509/488552.pdf

A comment on the rotary buckle. I think they're excellent for those that are accustomed to them. I chose the regular buckles, fully separable, for the benefit of inexperienced passengers, and potential rescuers. If someone swims down to rescue me or my passengers after I've screwed up, I don't want them to have to try and figure out how to open the seatbelt while holding their breath.

G44 wrote:Get the Seaplane buckle that separates all belts when the buckle is lifted.

Actually, I've flown both a lot on floats, and I much prefer the "standard" buckle over the "seaplane" buckle. And I've worked seaplanes on some fast rivers with the standard buckles....in and out mucho quick. To egress you just roll out the door...very natural move and I've never got hung up on the harness.

MTV

mtv wrote:

G44 wrote:Get the Seaplane buckle that separates all belts when the buckle is lifted.

Actually, I've flown both a lot on floats, and I much prefer the "standard" buckle over the "seaplane" buckle. And I've worked seaplanes on some fast rivers with the standard buckles....in and out mucho quick. To egress you just roll out the door...very natural move and I've never got hung up on the harness.

MTV

Mike, does the harness get in the way for rear seat access. Like pulling a car seat in and out for example? I thought the seaplane harness would be nice so you can hang them over the visor and they are out of the way.

I agree that donning the standard harness is probably quicker if you're doing a lot of short cycle commercial work. I think I'd roll out of it easily too. Again, it's unaccustomed passengers and rescuers who might have trouble with it.

As for rear seat passengers, I believe it would be a slight nuisance, but not unmanageable. Buckle it up and tilt the front seats forward, and the belts will extend forward with the seat back, or even more if you have headrests.

Pinecone wrote:I agree that donning the standard harness is probably quicker if you're doing a lot of short cycle commercial work. I think I'd roll out of it easily too. Again, it's unaccustomed passengers and rescuers who might have trouble with it.

As for rear seat passengers, I believe it would be a slight nuisance, but not unmanageable. Buckle it up and tilt the front seats forward, and the belts will extend forward with the seat back, or even more if you have headrests.

Yes, with the standard buckles removing a front seat can be a PITA, IF your seat belts are threaded through "keepers" on the sides of the seats.....which they should be.

On the other hand, when someone releases the "seaplane" buckles, tag ends go everywhere, including aft.

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to which system is "best". Pick the one you prefer.....either works great all in all.

MTV

I know the BAS harnesses are high on my to do list. I feel like the fixed harnesses are pretty useless in my 180. It's impossible to have the things tight enough to be useful and still be able to reach the flap handle.

Fraser Farmer wrote:I know the BAS harnesses are high on my to do list. I feel like the fixed harnesses are pretty useless in my 180. It's impossible to have the things tight enough to be useful and still be able to reach the flap handle.

Agreed, and it's not just the flap handle. My Cub doesn't have flaps, and it has fixed harnesses. I cinch up my harness when I buckle up, but soon I find that having the harnesses tight is less than comfy, and tend to loosen them. Passengers seem to do the same.

It's hard to visualize just how "plastic" the human body becomes in a sudden deceleration....but snug harnesses are essential to survival.

MTV

MTV,

Excellent post. Harrowing and illuminating at the same time.

A couple questions from someone that hopes he never needs to remember your answers:

1. Were you making mayday calls on the way down? If not, why not?
2. Prior to impact did you open your door and close the latch with the door open? In my forced approach training I've been taught it is one of the SOPs so that the door can't get jammed shut.
3. If the engine still worked, would Don Cogger and Atlee Dodge Jr. have flown it out on a salvage permit:-)?

Allan

albravo wrote:MTV,

Excellent post. Harrowing and illuminating at the same time.

A couple questions from someone that hopes he never needs to remember your answers:

1. Were you making mayday calls on the way down? If not, why not?
2. Prior to impact did you open your door and close the latch with the door open? In my forced approach training I've been taught it is one of the SOPs so that the door can't get jammed shut.
3. If the engine still worked, would Don Cogger and Atlee Dodge Jr. have flown it out on a salvage permit:-)?

Allan

Allan,

Good questions.

1. I had just been given a frequency change from Fairbanks Departure Control a few minutes before the engine failed. After the engine failed, I'd turned the 180 to head down hill and started engine start procedures, I called a mayday on the Departure frequency and they responded with the usual request for information....souls aboard, etc. By that time, I was too low to communicate with them, and there were no other facilities closer. I'd got off basic location, that the engine was failed, and one soul aboard in the first call. Didn't really have time for any more.

2. I did not open the door prior to landing. I've thought about that a lot, and frankly I don't know the "right" answer to that one. Some say that the door on these airplanes stiffens the structure....I can't believe there's a lot of stiffness provided, but.... But, in fact, I was just too busy to open the door while flying the airplane very close to the hillside, heading toward the only area on the hillside with no trees. I had too many other priorities to deal with first. As it turned out, both doors worked fine after the accidents, so at least in this case, this was not a factor.

3. Even those guys would have chartered a helicopter.....

A little post script: After Japan Air's 747 crew initially relayed a message for me back to FAI Departure Control, FAI Departure vectored an outbound 135 Navajo to a position overhead to provide a comm link. Once he was in position overhead, ATC asked me what I wanted to do. I told them that it appeared my work was done here for the day, so I'd like to go home (that is a quote, actually). They then asked if there was anywhere to land an airplane nearby, and I said I don't think so, and the Navajo pilot concurred. ATC then asked again what I wanted to do. I had got out my pocket phone book and told ATC to call Fort Wainwright's Alaska Fire Service Helibase, and ask them to launch the duty Helitack helicopter and head it my way. I gave them the helibase phone number.

About 35 or 40 minutes later, I heard the thump of an inbound Bell 205, which landed, picked me up and delivered me to Fort Wainwright's helibase, where my boss picked me up (I'd given ATC my boss' home phone number and asked them to let him know what was going on).

It wasn't till later that one of the guys that works at that base told me "The Rest of the Story": The phones at the helibase ring out and conversations are broadcast over a loudspeaker over the base. The helibase foreman answers the phone, but the "ready" helicopter crew listens any time a call comes in, and depending on the nature of the call, they will literally be spooling the turbine before the phone is hung up. They'll pick up anything else they need via radio once airborne.

Well, turns out the helibase foreman answered the call from ATC, and informed them that Alaska Fire Service does not do Search and Rescue. ATC was telling him that the downed pilot (me) had specifically told him to call AFS.....etc. Apparently, the helibase foreman was getting his undies in a bit of a knot when the turbine whine of that 205 started to spool.....at which point, he started yelling at the pilot not to go. Pilot, of course, ignored him.

The reason I told ATC to call AFS helibase was that the same folks who employed me, and owned the downed airplane were the ones who contracted the helitack helicopter. Of course, I'd failed to mention that to ATC.....

After this was all over, and I heard that part of the story, I tracked down the helo pilot and thanked him profusely, particularly since he didn't make any points with the helibase manager. His response: "No brainer....somebody calls and needs help, and I've got the key to a helicopter, and I'm not going????? Hardly." My kinda guy.

The next day, the same helicopter and pilot flew out to the airplane, hooked it up as a sling load and flew it in to FAI.

MTV

mtv wrote:I told them that it appeared my work was done here for the day, so I'd like to go home.
MTV

I think that about sums it up, with a splash of understatement.

Thanks for the answers. I figure the more I read and think through other folks' mishaps, the more likely I'll be able to survive my own.

mtv wrote:

Fraser Farmer wrote:I know the BAS harnesses are high on my to do list. I feel like the fixed harnesses are pretty useless in my 180. It's impossible to have the things tight enough to be useful and still be able to reach the flap handle.

Agreed, and it's not just the flap handle. My Cub doesn't have flaps, and it has fixed harnesses. I cinch up my harness when I buckle up, but soon I find that having the harnesses tight is less than comfy, and tend to loosen them. Passengers seem to do the same.

It's hard to visualize just how "plastic" the human body becomes in a sudden deceleration....but snug harnesses are essential to survival.

MTV

I've never been able to leave the fixed harnesses tight long enough for them to become uncomfortable so I didn't know about that. It was more like the first couple times I flew the plane I tightened them right up as I thought I should, only to immediately discover I couldn't operate the flaps and then they were never tightened again. Unfortunately the situations where you're closest to the ground and most likely to crash are also the situations where you need to use flaps.
I'm going to have to get some BAS harnesses sooner rather than later.

Fraser Farmer wrote:

mtv wrote:

Fraser Farmer wrote:I know the BAS harnesses are high on my to do list. I feel like the fixed harnesses are pretty useless in my 180. It's impossible to have the things tight enough to be useful and still be able to reach the flap handle.

Agreed, and it's not just the flap handle. My Cub doesn't have flaps, and it has fixed harnesses. I cinch up my harness when I buckle up, but soon I find that having the harnesses tight is less than comfy, and tend to loosen them. Passengers seem to do the same.

It's hard to visualize just how "plastic" the human body becomes in a sudden deceleration....but snug harnesses are essential to survival.

MTV

I've never been able to leave the fixed harnesses tight long enough for them to become uncomfortable so I didn't know about that. It was more like the first couple times I flew the plane I tightened them right up as I thought I should, only to immediately discover I couldn't operate the flaps and then they were never tightened again. Unfortunately the situations where you're closest to the ground and most likely to crash are also the situations where you need to use flaps.
I'm going to have to get some BAS harnesses sooner rather than later.

I firmly believe that the BAS harness systems are a serious safety item. Even in other than takeoff or landing situations, the freedom to move around without restriction is nice, and if you ever have an in flight emergency, it's just one less thing on your emergency checklist......"tighten harness"

If the choice were between BAS harnesses and ADS-B, I can tell you which way I'd go.

MTV

mtv wrote:A little post script:

It wasn't till later that one of the guys that works at that base told me "The Rest of the Story": The phones at the helibase ring out and conversations are broadcast over a loudspeaker over the base. The helibase foreman answers the phone, but the "ready" helicopter crew listens any time a call comes in, and depending on the nature of the call, they will literally be spooling the turbine before the phone is hung up. They'll pick up anything else they need via radio once airborne.

Well, turns out the helibase foreman answered the call from ATC, and informed them that Alaska Fire Service does not do Search and Rescue. ATC was telling him that the downed pilot (me) had specifically told him to call AFS.....etc. Apparently, the helibase foreman was getting his undies in a bit of a knot when the turbine whine of that 205 started to spool.....at which point, he started yelling at the pilot not to go. Pilot, of course, ignored him.

After this was all over, and I heard that part of the story, I tracked down the helo pilot and thanked him profusely, particularly since he didn't make any points with the helibase manager. His response: "No brainer....somebody calls and needs help, and I've got the key to a helicopter, and I'm not going????? Hardly." My kinda guy.

MTV

Obviously you provided the right number to call, so manager conflict or not, the pilot was the right guy for the job he was employed in. Everyone needs to know a guy, and/or be a guy like that.

Good job.
pb