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Cub wings

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Re: Cub wings

Cub wings are great for two reasons:
A) what DENNY said, the first time you bend a one off wing on some remote Alaskan island you're going to really appreciate this... Heck, bend a Husky or EXCC wing in the boondocks and you'll either really appreciate this or your the kind of guy tha hands the keys to the insurance man and moves on... not that there's anything wrong with that.
B) because so many people have used them and varied them that it has become very easy for the average builder to extrapolate what kind of performance to expect out of them...


Battson wrote:Are Cub wings really still revolutionary these days?

I'm not entirely convinced they were revolutionary when they were adapted to a J3

Would you want to bolt them onto a modern-day aircraft?

Absolutely, see reasons above

Sure they are good, but so are a lot of other wing designs...

Agreed, IMHO the BH uses a better wing

Looking at a Cub, it seems to me the Cub has enormously long wings for its size, and it pays an unduly heavy airspeed penalty for it.
Cub:

This is fundamentally incorrect, increasing the length of my wings didn't negatively effect the speed what so ever, increasing the aspect ratio (all else equal) doesn't

By comparison, look at a couple of modern alternatives. The wings the SuperSTOL for instance - they are midget wings side by side with a Cub. It still performs like a Cub at similar weights in terms of STOL.

(put a moose, 3 caribou, or roughly the weight of another cub again in it and get back to me... :roll: ) Legal or not this can and has been done in a cub forever... ag, Alaska, you name it.... I don't advocate overloading your airplane, but history clearly tells what has been hauled in a cub.

For a fairer comparison comparison to a longer winged Cub variation, with a modern aerofoil:
Patrol:

I like this wing 8)

The Patrol wing area is larger than the Cub, except the Patrol will fly about 30% faster than a Cub at equal power settings - which is a LOT given drag increases with the square of velocity. And that for only a knot or two difference in stall speed (demonstrated with a stock wing).

Unfortunately the problem with the Patrol comparison is that it is a Patrol wing on a Patrol not a cub, and a cub wing on a cub not a Patrol.
It has been proven that a cub with an AOI out of whack by as little as 1 degree will not perform as well as one that measures dead nuts. Consequently, IMHO taking an entirely different airship with differing AOI, differing fuselage differing drag situations, ad naseum is an exercise in futility... we may as well be comparing granny smiths to vidalias :wink:


I am not trying to start a contest here, just to demonstrate my point - there are clear competitors - what is it about the Cub's wings which makes them special in the eyes of many?

What say you?


My opinion ? My opinion is that you can buy every part related to a cub wing, and assemble any Lego land form of cubausaurus wing you can dream of. You can then look at history and without even going through the aeronautical engineering calculations , get a pretty good idea of what it's going to do, and then when you tweak it in the sticks somewhere in the middle of nowhere, you can still go to DENNYS neighbor, grab a wing (or maybe both if yours differed immensely) bolt them on and fly it home... What's not to like about that :wink:
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Re: Cub wings

Battson,

I am glad you are finding the energy management turn useful. No passengers don't like it. If family, do what you must. If firearm or photo shooters, have them watch forward when the wings are not level. They don't need to engage the target until the wings are again level coming out of the turn. If done smoothly, there should be little g load but tightening the tummy can help.

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Re: Cub wings

Rob wrote:Looking at a Cub, it seems to me the Cub has enormously long wings for its size, and it pays an unduly heavy airspeed penalty for it.
Cub:

This is fundamentally incorrect, increasing the length of my wings didn't negatively effect the speed what so ever, increasing the aspect ratio (all else equal) doesn't


Very interesting to hear lengthening the wing didn't cost you any noticeable loss of airspeed Rob. I guess there are a range of possibilities why that could have happened.

That aside, I think you have to agree that dragging a longer wing through the air adds drag. Ceteris paribus, that means the plane goes slower. If that's not true, then I am starting work on lengthening my wings tonight!

But I suspect there is never a free lunch....
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Re: Cub wings

Battson wrote:
Rob wrote:Looking at a Cub, it seems to me the Cub has enormously long wings for its size, and it pays an unduly heavy airspeed penalty for it.
Cub:

This is fundamentally incorrect, increasing the length of my wings didn't negatively effect the speed what so ever, increasing the aspect ratio (all else equal) doesn't


Very interesting to hear lengthening the wing didn't cost you any noticeable loss of airspeed Rob. I guess there are a range of possibilities why that could have happened.

That aside, I think you have to agree that dragging a longer wing through the air adds drag. Ceteris paribus, that means the plane goes slower. If that's not true, then I am starting work on lengthening my wings tonight!

But I suspect there is never a free lunch....


Actually, there are a few examples of an airplane type modified with longer wings that do cruise faster than their shorter wing brethren. Usually found at altitude, though.

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Re: Cub wings

Yes, that happens on Lancair Legacy and Glasair III for instance - but that is a different situation to a STOL plane flying in cruise with a negative chord angle relative to the horizon. I know you probably realised that too, just saying.

As I understand it, with a small highly loaded wing, increasing the area of the wing (length) means lower AoA at high altitude cruise, so LESS drag overall - because induced drag is a big one in that situation, and thus more airspeed.

Of course the same would not apply to Cub wings in 99% of situations.
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Re: Cub wings

dplunkt wrote:Maybe I'll stretch a pacer, put taylorcraft wings on, add huge flaps...oh to dream!


That's been done...

Image

Taylorcraft airfoil, Cessna flaps... 180 HP... Built locally about 4 - 5 years ago now...

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Re: Cub wings

d.grimm wrote:Years ago I happened to be in Del Rio TX
a lot when the Border Patrol was switching from Cubs to Huskys.
The "problems" were that the Huskys had been outfitted with full panels, stacks of radio's and were out of forward CG for
Non-government aircraft. The trim system on a Husky is only a bungee to help pull the stick back and the tail/elevator was stalling.
Wasn't a wing problem, if anything a elevator trim/ CG problem.
Dave




WRONG!

Trim system had NOTHING to do with it.
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Re: Cub wings

Battson wrote:
Rob wrote:Looking at a Cub, it seems to me the Cub has enormously long wings for its size, and it pays an unduly heavy airspeed penalty for it.
Cub:

This is fundamentally incorrect, increasing the length of my wings didn't negatively effect the speed what so ever, increasing the aspect ratio (all else equal) doesn't


Very interesting to hear lengthening the wing didn't cost you any noticeable loss of airspeed Rob. I guess there are a range of possibilities why that could have happened.

That aside, I think you have to agree that dragging a longer wing through the air adds drag. Ceteris paribus, that means the plane goes slower. If that's not true, then I am starting work on lengthening my wings tonight!

But I suspect there is never a free lunch....

The wing X extensions for cessnas show an increase of speed. Higher apect ratio is the reason I'm pretty sure.
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Re: Cub wings

Brian-StevesAircraft wrote:
dplunkt wrote:Maybe I'll stretch a pacer, put taylorcraft wings on, add huge flaps...oh to dream!


That's been done...

Image

Taylorcraft airfoil, Cessna flaps... 180 HP... Built locally about 4 - 5 years ago now...

Brian


I remember seeing this a while back and actually searched for it a few weeks ago out of curiosity...

What are the details on the build and are there any more pictures?
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Re: Cub wings

Hey just because its been done before doesn't mean I can't dream.

Actually I'd like to know the performance stats too as this is an apples to apples with producers/bushmasters that have the cub wing. I think there are basically three airfoils that are go to: Cub, Taylorcraft and the Ribblett 30 like the Bearhawk. there are some cubs that use the D&E Riblett although I think its slightly different from the BH Patrol's airfoil.
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Re: Cub wings

Increasing wing span with the same cord will reduce induced drag. Theoretically this should increase airspeed at the same power setting.
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Re: Cub wings

CamTom12 wrote:
Brian-StevesAircraft wrote:
dplunkt wrote:Maybe I'll stretch a pacer, put taylorcraft wings on, add huge flaps...oh to dream!


That's been done...

Image

Taylorcraft airfoil, Cessna flaps... 180 HP... Built locally about 4 - 5 years ago now...

Brian


I remember seeing this a while back and actually searched for it a few weeks ago out of curiosity...

What are the details on the build and are there any more pictures?



I have to go off my memory here.... Its been a while....

The ribs are 3 piece stamped Taylorcraft.. The leading edges were canted down slightly to give it a cuff..
Flaps and tracks are straight off of a early Cessna 172...
22 inch stretch in the tail... Firewall moved forward 6 inches... Cabin raised 3 inches...
0-360 from a helicopter converted for horizontal... Engine mount is Zero thrust line...
Maule Oleo on homebuilt gear legs...
I do not remember any of the performance specifications...

The owner has since had 2 kids and I do not see him here much anymore... Last time was over 6 months ago...

Here are a few pics when assembling the aircraft... These are all I have...

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Cub wings

Wow, that looks like a potent airplane!

Did he enlarge the tail surfaces over the stock T-craft or Piper? Those big Cessna barn-doors create a pretty fair pitching moment, and on top of that he will have increased the camber some more by drooping the leading edge ribs... causing a little more pitch-down. Stretching the tail will give him some more tail volume and pitch authority... but I still hope he put bigger tails on it.

But... freakin' wow !
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Re: Cub wings

Battson wrote:
Rob wrote:Looking at a Cub, it seems to me the Cub has enormously long wings for its size, and it pays an unduly heavy airspeed penalty for it.
Cub:

This is fundamentally incorrect, increasing the length of my wings didn't negatively effect the speed what so ever, increasing the aspect ratio (all else equal) doesn't


Very interesting to hear lengthening the wing didn't cost you any noticeable loss of airspeed Rob. I guess there are a range of possibilities why that could have happened.

That aside, I think you have to agree that dragging a longer wing through the air adds drag. Ceteris paribus, that means the plane goes slower. If that's not true, then I am starting work on lengthening my wings tonight!

But I suspect there is never a free lunch....


I apologize, not only was that entire post poorly written, the sentence in bold steps all over one of my own pet peeves (re; blanket statements) clearly you understand aspect ratio, and yes there are no free rides.

Having said that, I can assure you that out of all the long winged cubs I know of and have flown, not one has paid a speed penalty for the wing extension. Tires, pods, gear, props, etc, etc, yes But lengthened wings... no. To this I might add that a couple of these birds were restricted category aircraft that had their wings extended at a time of a more user friendly FAA, and were consequently stretched beyond any STC that exists today. The main reason cub purists poo-poo long wings is because they do become a little lazier in the roll, even a lot lazier if the ailerons aren't dealt with in the extension, as several STC's are written. No experienced cub person can sanely argue that they won't haul a better load though, and in my book that directly translates to 'better in stol'

My work airplane, which has a very similar wing to your BH actually cruises faster with extended wings. Or more accurately I should say it's supposed to, I never flew this one with stock wings, what I can say is it takes very little effort to hit the redline 8)

Last but not least my Cessna (not a cub wing nor a BH wing, but reasonably STOLy) is not stretched, consequently I have no first hand experience, but a quick browse through all the product reports for the more popular routes of wing extensions suggest again no penalty (at a bare minimum)



Take care, Rob
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Re: Cub wings

EZFlap wrote:Wow, that looks like a potent airplane!

Did he enlarge the tail surfaces over the stock T-craft or Piper? Those big Cessna barn-doors create a pretty fair pitching moment, and on top of that he will have increased the camber some more by drooping the leading edge ribs... causing a little more pitch-down. Stretching the tail will give him some more tail volume and pitch authority... but I still hope he put bigger tails on it.

But... freakin' wow !


Yes, I forgot about that in my other post.... The stock PA-22 tail feathers were lengthened in cord I think 4 or 5 inches...

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Re: Cub wings

Brian-StevesAircraft wrote:
dplunkt wrote:Maybe I'll stretch a pacer, put taylorcraft wings on, add huge flaps...oh to dream!


That's been done...

Image

Taylorcraft airfoil, Cessna flaps... 180 HP... Built locally about 4 - 5 years ago now...

Brian



Coulda saved a lot of time and money and just bought a Maule #-o
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Re: Cub wings

[quote="sbmaule"}
Coulda saved a lot of time and money and just bought a Maule #-o[/quote]

Heck, I wouldn't kick it out of bed for eating crackers...
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Re: Cub wings

Brian-StevesAircraft wrote:I have to go off my memory here.... Its been a while....
The ribs are 3 piece stamped Taylorcraft.. The leading edges were canted down slightly to give it a cuff..
Flaps and tracks are straight off of a early Cessna 172...
22 inch stretch in the tail... Firewall moved forward 6 inches... Cabin raised 3 inches...
0-360 from a helicopter converted for horizontal... Engine mount is Zero thrust line...
Maule Oleo on homebuilt gear legs...
I do not remember any of the performance specifications.......



The Cessna flaps on a stretched Pacer rings a bell..... is that the "Darringer"?
I remember you posting about it several years ago, either here or maybe on the SWP site.
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Re: Cub wings

hotrod180 wrote:
Brian-StevesAircraft wrote:I have to go off my memory here.... Its been a while....
The ribs are 3 piece stamped Taylorcraft.. The leading edges were canted down slightly to give it a cuff..
Flaps and tracks are straight off of a early Cessna 172...
22 inch stretch in the tail... Firewall moved forward 6 inches... Cabin raised 3 inches...
0-360 from a helicopter converted for horizontal... Engine mount is Zero thrust line...
Maule Oleo on homebuilt gear legs...
I do not remember any of the performance specifications.......



The Cessna flaps on a stretched Pacer rings a bell..... is that the "Darringer"?
I remember you posting about it several years ago, either here or maybe on the SWP site.


Yes... The same...

I did post about it but do not remember which site it was... SuperCub.org, here or SWP'S... I'll have to find it again..

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Re: Cub wings

As an aside to this discussion, I would be interested to know whether long-wing Maules tend to cruise faster/slower/same as the universal wing version.

I understand the long wing stalls about 3kts slower for an addition of just 3" longer each wing (32'11" vs 33'5"?) according to old posts on BCP, but I cannot say if they are different aerofoils...
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