Knobs wrote:they performance states that it has a service ceiling of 14k seems low to be all that good in Gunni or most of CO where you're operating with a 7-10k DA - any idea if its really that low? I've seen similar aircraft stating the service ceiling of 20k+

Do to the lack of punctuation I can’t tell which airplane you are talking about. If it’s the Bearhawk I’ve never seen a publish service ceiling for them. I flew a 180hp out of a 7k msl flied for a summer, DAs 8-12k. Zero issues. I fly my 210hp BH out of a 5k msl field with DAs around 7-10k. No issues. I flew both airplanes up the 14k and mine a bit higher with no problem. I didn’t go higher due to no O2 but I have little doubt I could get mine much higher.

Curious what forces are causing this market.

I saw an increase in value for training type aircraft (C152, C172, PA28, etc.) a little over a year ago and speculated that people were trying to build time for the 121/135 jobs that seemed limitless. That demand cooled for awhile but might pick up.

It took me a year to move the PA-12 I had listed here and I went from 40k to 30k on the price.

In Canada I think the current plane market is all about the lockdowns.People are not enjoying being locked up no hockey no visiting and if you have a plane it gives you some resemblance of freedom. There are a lot of former pilots renewing their licenses and buying anything that flys to enjoy this freedom.

Swindler wrote:Curious what forces are causing this market.

I saw an increase in value for training type aircraft (C152, C172, PA28, etc.) a little over a year ago and speculated that people were trying to build time for the 121/135 jobs that seemed limitless. That demand cooled for awhile but might pick up.

It took me a year to move the PA-12 I had listed here and I went from 40k to 30k on the price.

Follow the money....and right now its cheap, and has been for awhile. I bought my 182 2.5 years ago and have been watching the narrow body 182 market closely since then just for kicks. That market has gone up 15%+ in that time, easy, and more for the nicer birds. As others have noted before, I think this is all tied to cheap money and cheap gas. There are loads of people out there that have no qualms whatsoever about borrowing $75,000+ for 20 years on a boat, RV or airplane. In this climate, there are hoards of lenders willing to loan out that money. Those people are all new kids to the market. That much liquidity being dumped into any market coupled with the rate and price at which they are producing new airplanes, values in the used market are bound to head north. I would think a rise in interest rates will slow this train down considerably, as will rising oil costs to a lesser degree.

I'm thinking there will be a bit of a slow down in the rising prices. 172's have gone up in price at a surprising rate as have other small planes. The new administration seems to have already caused a spike if fuel prices. (Apologies, not trying to make this political)I know prices have seem to have increased by $.050+/- in the last several weeks. When (if) prices get get up to $3.00+ per gallon for mogas,

I think the flying will start to taper off again. Once it hits near $5.00/gallon airplane prices will most likely drop again like they did over a decade ago. No one was flying, planes sat and those that were being sold, were languishing on the market even at rock bottom prices. Very few people around me were flying other than myself and a few of my flying buddies. The airport was a ghost town.

The owners with the avgas guzzling engines were pretty much dormant. Ironically, I spoke to a guy the other day that has a 180K that he might be selling. 2nd owner and the plane is low time (1600TT). Even though I know it is a plane I doubt I could afford to own and fly, I sure am tempted. Unfortunately, it has the O-470-U, which I understand does not have an STC available to burn mogas. At the 12-15GPH fuel burn of this engine, it's hard to justify. But,....I'm still trying to crunch the numbers. I passed on getting a 180 a couple of years ago, but as they say, things change.

I guess our fuel prices in CA will be at $8 when yours hit $5?

Nushi wrote:.....Follow the money....and right now its cheap, and has been for awhile. I bought my 182 2.5 years ago and have been watching the narrow body 182 market closely since then just for kicks. That market has gone up 15%+ in that time, easy, and more for the nicer birds. As others have noted before, I think this is all tied to cheap money and cheap gas. There are loads of people out there that have no qualms whatsoever about borrowing $75,000+ for 20 years on a boat, RV or airplane......

I've been kinda following the C180 market for about 20 years now.
It'll be holding relatively steady or slowly going up,
then every few years it'll jump.
The last year or two it's jumped,
you can't hardly find one with an asking price below 100K.
I don't know about people borrowing money,
but I think a lot of it is boomers growing older & wealthier and retiring.
While part of the economy (service industry / workers mainly) is tanked,
the stock market is kicking ass.
DJIA is hovering around 31K right now.
The kids' college tuitions have been paid, they're grown & gone,
so it's "let's buy something for ourselves.
Where's that Trade a Plane?"

WWhunter wrote:IUnfortunately, it has the O-470-U, which I understand does not have an STC available to burn mogas. At the 12-15GPH fuel burn of this engine, it's hard to justify. But,....I'm still trying to crunch the numbers. I passed on getting a 180 a couple of years ago, but as they say, things change.

I had a 182B with O-470 (I forget which edition) and I often saw around 10-12 gph without aggressive leaning. Fuel when I had my plane was over $5 a gallon. I sold it for a variety of reasons, and wish I hadn't. If you are flying the Rans in your Avatar - cant beat the operating cost of them - if the right one comes forsale I will definitely look hard at getting one.

29singlespeed wrote:

WWhunter wrote:IUnfortunately, it has the O-470-U, which I understand does not have an STC available to burn mogas. At the 12-15GPH fuel burn of this engine, it's hard to justify. But,....I'm still trying to crunch the numbers. I passed on getting a 180 a couple of years ago, but as they say, things change.

I had a 182B with O-470 (I forget which edition) and I often saw around 10-12 gph without aggressive leaning. Fuel when I had my plane was over $5 a gallon. I sold it for a variety of reasons, and wish I hadn't. If you are flying the Rans in your Avatar - cant beat the operating cost of them - if the right one comes for sale I will definitely look hard at getting one.

Yes sir, the RANS is what I fly half of the time. I keep it at my strip so it's basically a 'walk out the door' and go flying situation. It's fun plane but not the one I want for going anyplace whenever it is turbulent or windy. Although I have thought of selling it, I haven't really put it up for sale....yet. The other half of the time, I fly an old 172A. Great plane that I have had for 34 years. It is going to a younger pilot sometime this spring or early summer. In the meantime, I have been looking at options for something I can traverse more of the country in, yet be able to keep it at my own strip. Keeping it at my own strip is already a $2K savings over hangaring it in town. The 27 mile drive into the airport counts up in both time and expenses also, especially when I need to do any repairs.

Always loved the 180 but really couldn't get it to pencil out. Fuel burn is only a small part of it, insurance and annual costs associated with a more complex style of airplane and contributing factors. CS Prop, bigger engine (more cylinders), etc. all increase the cost of ownership. I'm past that 60 year old mark so I'm at the point if I want to take the plunge, I need to do it soon.

Several guys I know are saying their insurance has gotten nuts due to their age, even though they have owned and flown the same plane for decades. Decisions....decisions!

Cessna 205 on Barnstormers. Obviously needs engine and some TLC. But, could be a nice plane with some $$$ invested.

https://www.barnstormers.com/listing_im ... id=1635339

MTV

After 5 years of owning and flying a 180, I do not think the main cost is fuel.

It's Upgrades & Maintenance.

There are a lot of things that will come up if you keep your 180 in good condition. Consider something like a crack in your airbox, this will cost around ~1000$ minimum to fix. The next year you may have an induction leak. Or you may want to do something to manage your engine heat differently, or upgrade a radio.

The maintenance to keep everything safe and performant, and upgrades to modernize, in my experience make fuel look cheap.

nickelb wrote:After 5 years of owning and flying a 180, I do not think the main cost is fuel.

It's Upgrades & Maintenance.

There are a lot of things that will come up if you keep your 180 in good condition. Consider something like a crack in your airbox, this will cost around ~1000$ minimum to fix. The next year you may have an induction leak. Or you may want to do something to manage your engine heat differently, or upgrade a radio.

The maintenance to keep everything safe and performant, and upgrades to modernize, in my experience make fuel look cheap.

EXACTLY!! Having owned a few planes in the last 3+ decades, I whole heartedly agree. It is the upkeep and maintenance that are the money suckers. The other thing that has me contemplating is the recent tail AD on the 180 series. I'm 51+% on passing on this particular 180. The seller hasn't made a decision yet as to if he is going to sell it or not, even though he hasn't been flying it the past 3 years.

Honestly don't need 4-seats anymore. Also, trying to manhandle that size aircraft when anyplace other than a paved strip can also be a struggle I have to consider. Back to searching for a replacement for the trusty old 172......

The cheapest part of buying a plane is buying the plane.

I just sold my Citabria because I needed the hangar space for my Kitfox build.

Posted the ad on Barnstormer's on a Friday night. My phone started blowing up on Saturday morning at 4am. After filtering out a couple of lowballs (ignored) I responded to a guy in Bozeman, MT. He sounded like a legit buyer so I held the plane while he and his friend drove all day Saturday.

I returned a few other calls to local responses and showed the plane to one of them, but wasn't going to sell the plane out from under the guys from BZN because they were obviously serious about buying.

They met me at my hangar early Sunday and we flew the plane. Cash sale, no haggling no pre-buy inspection drama. Plane was priced very fairly (obviously, based on the continued stream of calls even after I marked the ad "sold").

They're flying the crap out of that thing. Last I looked on Flightaware they're putting at least 3 flights per day on it.

Going experimental is how I'm reducing the costs of aircraft ownership.

Aryana wrote:The cheapest part of buying a plane is buying the plane.

Truth same with boats. I've once again decided to just sit things out. Lack of hangar space here at our little airport also helped with the deterrent. I will keep the searches going but not rushing into no inspection, bidding wars, etc.

Is the entire plane market going up, or just certain models? My A&P told me that he got a notice that Cessna will no longer be making parts for 206's and almost anything with a tailwheel. He was speculating that maintenance costs on the older planes will eventually cause their value to plummet and that the only future for non-commercial use is experimental and planes from smaller companies like Maule.

The whole market is up, but Cessna's are up more. Part of it is the price of new airplanes, the flights schools have sucked up all the 70's 172s out there, and started moving up to 182's, back to older 172's, and forward to the early restart airplanes. The price of a 1997 172 is more now with 10k hours on the airplane than it was new.

Parts? McFarlane, PMA suppliers and owner produced will keep these airplanes flying long after the 2000's SR20's are in the scrap heap... assuming we can get fuel.

Quis wrote:My A&P told me that he got a notice that Cessna will no longer be making parts for 206's and almost anything with a tailwheel.

I would like to know more about Textron's notification.

I've been in the market for several years because I never felt like I found the right plan or the right time to buy. I am in Alaska so that presents additional challenges and premium to the prices most people are used to.

I was hoping I would find this thread already started because the market is insane. All Time Low inventory that I can remember as long as I have been watching for the last 5 years. When I moved here 5 years ago a solid 170B could be had for 50 to 60k. Now they are 100k while a 170A is fetching 60k... I've always been waiting for a good 180 but now it's out of my price range. It does seem like the housing bubble. I'm hoping it cools off a bit or the inventory at least returns. I don't think this is going to be a good year to buy an airplane

My Dad once told me about the “spirit” of homebuilt aircraft. How the original intent of homebuilts was to counter the high cost of certified aircraft, and make due with off the shelf parts from automotive stores, hardware stores, and aircraft salvage yards. And a wonderful byproduct was increase performance, at least for some designs.

With the current cost of an RV-12 or Kitfox ($100k+), along with the sudden price increase of what used to be affordable aircraft just 10 years ago (think Cessna 150 or 172), maybe we’ll see a resurgence of that original spirit? Maybe aircraft like the Milholland Eagle series, and other highly affordable plans built aircraft will be popular again? I would think a Double Eagle with improved landing gear and a geared motor would be a viable single seat back county plane, that might be built for as little as $10k?