Split from the Almost Bent Some Metal thread IN Live to Tell. -Z
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Hottshot wrote:

pdknight wrote: We set up on an extended straight-in

First off thanks for sharing and don't take this like I am beating you up but at a unfamiliar airport or any airport unless towered and instructed to do so DON'T do straight in's!! Please..... it can get you in a heap of trouble. We had a UL on the ground the other day that had a gear failure and some wise guy decided to do a straight in and didn't announce (I had radio in back pocket) and almost caused a pretty serous FUBAR, had he come in (even un-announced) and entered the pattern proper like it would have saved us all a little pucker factor.

There is nothing wrong with a straight in approach. Check the AIM. It's okay. Seems to me your complaint anyway was the guy wasn't using the radio. That's another matter.

There is nothing ILLEGAL about a straight in approach. To do so, however, suggests that the approachee keeps his or her EYES OPEN during said approach. Radio communication is not required except at tower controlled airports, either. Again, if you CHOOSE not to use the radio, keep your eyes wide open at all times.

The principal means of collision avoidance in this country is still "see and avoid", even with radar, even with ADS-B, and yes, even with traffic patterns and radios.

I think the gent shared a worthwhile story that offers several lessons. Good on him.

MTV

maulewaco wrote:I always like to take a look before I drop on in. Never know what is going on down there if you just flew in on a x-country. Most of the straight in jackos are tri gear glass panel circus clowns asking for trouble.. They also fly a heavy metal patern and a mile final or longer when they get into the patern.
The tri-gear is because they have never flown a tailwheel and read the wind or take a look at the sock and glass panel is one that has to stare at some type of gizmo on the panel to fly the damn thing and never look out the window or know where the last best spot was to deadstick in or the plane that just wizzed by?. Yes sir, flying by the book and not by the seat. Stay the hell away from me, You all know the ones. The ones that give you a funny feeling in your gut when "if you are lucky" here a radio call. AH AHHH NOU81 12 miles out straight in for runway 30. Ah AH NOU81 can I get a airport advisery.

I know there's been plenty of discussion on this very subject on other threads. But I understand the comments and this comment above. I'll be honest, I've done straight ins before at some airports on calm wind days (and only at the airports I know for sure I can perform a safe Go Around). But in a different fashion. I never ask for "Airport Advisory" or "Any other traffic, please advise"!! I think that is just plain selfish and arrogant!!

I think a better way to mention your planning to do a straight in is to announce "..... 36D, 10 mile final, traffic permitting". Then LISTEN for other traffic that may be in the pattern. If none, then proceed on your final. Then announce again when your 5 miles out while your listening AND LOOKING for other traffic in the pattern. If I see and or hear traffic, I'll break off and enter the pattern the more proper way.

I personally don't like & almost never do straight-ins unless instructed to do so by the tower at a controlled field. Even if approaching from upwind of the airport, I prefer an overhead crosswind entry to a straight-in. Gives me a good oportunity to eyeball the runway & airport environment, and make sure there's no dead airplanes, deer, or blackberry pickers out on the strip. Also flying a pattern lets me use key points (downwind abeam, turning base, turning final) to make sure I'm on altitude & on airspeed.
Pretty easy on a straight-in to end up high & fast, and a poor approach generally leads to a poor landing.

58Skylane wrote: I think a better way to mention your planning to do a straight in is to announce "..... 36D, 10 mile final, traffic permitting". Then LISTEN for other traffic that may be in the pattern. If none, then proceed on your final. Then announce again when your 5 miles out while your listening AND LOOKING for other traffic in the pattern. If I see and or hear traffic, I'll break off and enter the pattern the more proper way.

I rarely do a straight in (gotta clear deer off my home field!) and only at a towered airport but your suggested announcement really makes sense to me. Someone announcing a final 10 miles out always seemd a bit arrogant to me. What is someone in the pattern supposed to do? Make way?

Adding the "traffic permitting" tells me the pilot is more than willing to work with other people using the airport and I am much less likely to be looking for a "missile lock" on the guy!

Nice thought! I will be adding that to my vocabulary.

Skystrider wrote:...Adding the "traffic permitting" tells me the pilot is more than willing to work with other people using the airport ....

Of course, the not-so-uncommon exception to that rule is the guy who adds "traffic permitting" to his position reports, when it is obvious that he is gonna do his straight in no matter what anyone else is doing or how much he fouls them up.

I have done some long final and extended bases just as Pat has described without any problems.
I have also turned base to final twice in front of 10 mile final traffic and got a good lashing on the radio......WTFO.

Terry wrote:I have done some long final and extended bases just as Pat has described without any problems.
I have also turned base to final twice in front of 10 mile final traffic and got a good lashing on the radio......WTFO.

FAR 91.113 (g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

That could be a good reminder for those that like to give tongue lashings. Make them look like the stupid ones

As long as I haven't heard anyone else in the pattern, I'll announce a straight in final and then keep my eyes peeled.

Here's one for the CFIs....where does "final" begin as opposed to lined up for final....referencing the AIM, ....same for "downwind " 5 miles west of the airport????....and "base" that is 5 miles away from airport enviornment....last I checked, AIM did not specify a distance from centerline or numbers...."advisory only" limits on AIM noted..certainly no FAR.....

58Skylane wrote:

maulewaco wrote:I always like to take a look before I drop on in. Never know what is going on down there if you just flew in on a x-country. Most of the straight in jackos are tri gear glass panel circus clowns asking for trouble.. They also fly a heavy metal patern and a mile final or longer when they get into the patern.
The tri-gear is because they have never flown a tailwheel and read the wind or take a look at the sock and glass panel is one that has to stare at some type of gizmo on the panel to fly the damn thing and never look out the window or know where the last best spot was to deadstick in or the plane that just wizzed by?. Yes sir, flying by the book and not by the seat. Stay the hell away from me, You all know the ones. The ones that give you a funny feeling in your gut when "if you are lucky" here a radio call. AH AHHH NOU81 12 miles out straight in for runway 30. Ah AH NOU81 can I get a airport advisery.

I know there's been plenty of discussion on this very subject on other threads. But I understand the comments and this comment above. I'll be honest, I've done straight ins before at some airports on calm wind days (and only at the airports I know for sure I can perform a safe Go Around). But in a different fashion. I never ask for "Airport Advisory" or "Any other traffic, please advise"!! I think that is just plain selfish and arrogant!!

I think a better way to mention your planning to do a straight in is to announce "..... 36D, 10 mile final, traffic permitting". Then LISTEN for other traffic that may be in the pattern. If none, then proceed on your final. Then announce again when your 5 miles out while your listening AND LOOKING for other traffic in the pattern. If I see and or hear traffic, I'll break off and enter the pattern the more proper way.

You know what?? I got to thinking about my comment after Bill brought up "where does a final start". I don't think I ever used the term "10 mile final", "5 mile final", sorry for the confusion and misstatement

If I plan to fly straight in and not hearing, or seeing no other traffic in the pattern. I usually announce "..... 36D, 10 to the west, at (alt.), planning straight in, traffic permitting". Same thing 5 miles out. I always considered final to be within 2-3 miles of the runway. I think 1 mile would probably be the final mark, though. I always yield/give way to traffic already in the pattern if I'm doing a straight in. Which really isn't that often. I don't want to make it sound like I'm doing straight ins all the time.

Again, sorry for the misinformation. It's been a while since I flew around uncontrolled airports

My personal philosophy is that I always get eyes on the airport grounds before I land, and that usually means flying a partial pattern at least. Overhead, 45, crosswind, something to allow me to make sure that the airport hasn't been commandeered by Leftist rebels, or there is no "X" on my runway. I've argued this point endlessly in the past for those who feel that us pattern police are cramping their style, but even if there is no other traffic or people to piss off, I fly a pattern. In the backcountry, not always possible, but I will still put eyes on the strip from much higher prior to setting up for the landing. Radios...use em if ya got em, and I always do, but some people aren't even equipped.

Another way of looking at it is that a pattern is a mixing bowl, a traffic circle for aircraft to safely enter at a predetermined altitude and location (45 to downwind) and figure out the separation and speed differentials (ever been in the pattern with a King Air? I have...) prior to committing to final, which can be a tunnel vision sort of affair. Someone on a long final can throw a wrench into this nice little system.

Just my personal philosophy.

You know...... this is starting to make me think even more. More along the line of what if something happened (incident/accident) on your landing if you just did a straight in and didn't take the extra minute or two to fly over the field. I personally have a hard time lying, so trying to explain to the insurance company I didn't see that log, or X, line of sprinklers, animal, didn't get a good look at the wind sock or what ever on the runway would be a difficult task for me.

So, maybe not a good idea to do a straight in if your the only one using the airport. Maybe safer to go straight in after some one else landed in front of you.

I always had the idea that anyone in the pattern landing had priority over someone calling 5 or 10 mile final. I figure it up to the traffic trying to cheat the system to adjust for the guy that is doing things according to proceedure. Plus the guy in the pattern, most of the time would be lower, and have the advantage anyways, just because of that.

I was goin into T-ride one day and some guy in a smoker called 10 mile final after I called midfield downwind. So, I figured he's haulin ass, no big deal, I'll extend and let him on in. Shit, I met him about 10 miles out, I call that bullshit. And I've had that happen several times.

When I lived in Sedona,I would see that alot. Guys didn't want to run the pattern, call a 3 mile final expecting everyone else to adjust for them, when they were probably10-15 out.

I do my share of straightins and other non standard stuff at places that aren't busy, but I give position reports and intentions, just incase someone is out there that I'm not seein, or not seein me.

Happy New Year
Gary

Student BCP wrote:FAR 91.113 (g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.......

I think the aircraft on "final" has the right of way. Period. Of course, as pointed out, it's kind of subjective exactly where final is-- IMHO I agree with 58skylane that "final" starts 2-3 miles out for small GA aircraft. I've been chewed out flying a close in pattern turning a 1/2 mile or less final when I allegedly cut off a guy 3 or 4 miles or so out on a straight-in. I just apologized, but really wanted to tell him not to worry-- I'd be down & clear, and damn near to my hangar, by the time he came over the fence.
I think the part about the lower aircraft having the right of way is applicable (like it says) when approaching the airport-- but traffic established on final (as opposed to "approaching the airport") has right of way even over lower aircraft . That's my take on 91.113 (g) anyway.

This seems to be kind of a grey area. Probly a good place for MTV to jump in . I would think that a pilot that went through the downwind, base, final proceedure had right away, over a pilot who just doesn't want to be bothered with proceedure when others are in the pattern.

I can't understand why a guy that just doesn't want to waste his time going through "recommended" proceedure can just cut in line ahead of others that are doing what is recommended, just cuz.????

Gary

shortfielder wrote:.... I would think that a pilot that went through the downwind, base, final proceedure had right away, over a pilot who just doesn't want to be bothered with proceedure when others are in the pattern...

Gary

Hi Gary,

here ya go:

While not 'regulatory' in nature, this is an excerpt from AC 90-66A Recommended Standard Traffic Patterns and Practices for Aeronautical Operations at Airports Without Operating Control Towers. So when shit hits the fan it will probably factor in... :

7. GENERAL OPERATING PRACTICES...
...

e. The FAA encourages pilots to use the standard traffic pattern. However, for those pilots who choose to execute a straight-in approach, maneuvering for and execution of the approach should be completed so as not to disrupt the flow of arriving and departing traffic...

The flip side to all this, is the guy like me who is rarely talking on the radio (but most always listening). My take is that if you are so far out on 'final' that I can not see you, we can't possibly be in conflict....

Take care, Rob

How can you tell when you are on final?

If you lose your engine you can still make the runway!

Thanks Rob
Think I'll copy that and stick it in the plane, hoping tht I can remeber where I put it when the pissin starts.

shortfielder wrote:........ I would think that a pilot that went through the downwind, base, final proceedure had right away, over a pilot who just doesn't want to be bothered with proceedure when others are in the pattern. .........

If it was about common sense or common courtesy, yes. But it's not. Read 91.113 (g) again: aircraft on final approach to land have right of way. If you fly a pattern & turn in front of a guy doing a straight-in, and there is a conflict, you are the one violating the FAR's. Read that part of 91.113(g) right after the red-highlighted part in the earlier post.
The only grey area is where a straight-in "approach" become a "final approach".

I was more referencing Terry's post about getting a lashing for turning base to final in front of a guy that called a ten mile final. Since he was turning base to final I would assume that he'd be at the lower altitude and therefore have the right of way. Not that there would be a conflict anyway with traffic ten miles out. I'd have to agree with Rob, if you're too far out to see shouldn't be a factor, unless it's a Lear or Citation or something