Debatable procedures for pattern entry
Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:41 pm
Re: Almost bent some metal, almost...
Sorry if I'm changing the subject a little, but does anyone know where to find the forum with the glacier tour videos with the beaver that almost came apart in mid air and the pilot milked it back to Talkeetna? thanks!
It all looks good, "from a distance".
Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:01 pm
Re: Almost bent some metal, almost...
ping170 wrote:Sorry if I'm changing the subject a little, but does anyone know where to find the forum with the glacier tour videos with the beaver that almost came apart in mid air and the pilot milked it back to Talkeetna? thanks!
That was featured a couple months back in AOPA Online. Here's the written account:
http://www.aopa.org/pilot/never_again/2006/na0603.html Hope that helps.
-DP
Last edited by denalipilot on Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:18 pm
Re: Almost bent some metal, almost...
You mean to tell me that you guys use the radio?
Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:33 pm
Re: Almost bent some metal, almost...
Thankyou, sir, that led me in the right direction, it's under real pilot stories! JW
It all looks good, "from a distance".
Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:42 pm
Re: Almost bent some metal, almost...
gbflyer wrote:You mean to tell me that you guys use the radio?
Well, I'm still kind of new (low time)
Back when I was training at Caldwell, there was another fairly new pilot that would always give a life story about his position reports. It would be kind of like this:
"Area traffic...... this is Cessna, 5, 8, Romeo, I'm currently over Black Canyon Res., about 5 miles east of Emmett airport, south bound for Caldwell, at 4 thousand 5 hundred feet, clear smooth air, so on and so on". By the time he's done giving a position report, he's down over the foothills south of Emmett.
I really shouldn't give the poor guy a hard time. I was pretty lengthy and slow when I first started, too.
Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:21 am
Re: Almost bent some metal, almost...
58Skylane wrote:gbflyer wrote:You mean to tell me that you guys use the radio?
Well, I'm still kind of new (low time)
Back when I was training at Caldwell, there was another fairly new pilot that would always give a life story about his position reports. It would be kind of like this:
"Area traffic...... this is Cessna, 5, 8, Romeo, I'm currently over Black Canyon Res., about 5 miles east of Emmett airport, south bound for Caldwell, at 4 thousand 5 hundred feet, clear smooth air, so on and so on". By the time he's done giving a position report, he's down over the foothills south of Emmett.
I really shouldn't give the poor guy a hard time. I was pretty lengthy and slow when I first started, too.
Haha- GB- you don't know what you're missing:
Last time coming home from FAI there were these two guys who monopolized 22.9 for at least a solid 25 minutes, going on and on and on about their saturday night (ahem) exploits, past, present and future. In graphic detail.
Under the circumstances, it was more entertaining than annoying. 58Skylane, I think your Caldwell guy has a ways to go to really develop his radio skills.What thread was this again, anyways?
-DP
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Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:42 am
Re: Almost bent some metal, almost...
denalipilot wrote:
What thread was this again, anyways?
-DP
I did drift about 25 miles off coarse!
( 
me and some others) Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:23 am
Re: Almost bent some metal, almost...
maulewaco wrote:... Most of the straight in jackos are tri gear glass panel circus clowns asking for trouble..
...The tri-gear is because they have never flown a tailwheel and read the wind or take a look at the sock..
Meh, not really. Towing gliders in a ex-ag plane I never fly a downwind, base, final it's simply not cost effective for the operation, nor enjoyable for the next glider waiting for me on the ground.
If I have not been at a airport before or am suspicious I may fly a full pattern to check things out.
One last caveat, I am just as large a elitist Tailwheel pilot as anyone else, HOWEVER I have seen weekend warriors playing "Mr Alaska bush pilot" bounce in on their tundras and almost eat up a entire 5k plus foot field in their new CC cubs, so let's not get too uppity here!
Now for not using the radio, that's just lazy and stupid
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Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:59 am
Re: Almost bent some metal, almost...
NineThreeKilo wrote: Now for not using the radio, that's just lazy and stupid
Are you related to my ex?
I am perfectly capable of navigating the IFR system with all it's associated radio talk. And I will agree that there may be instances where a radio equipped aircraft not making a radio call may be imprudent. In extreme cases even negligent (I try to never say never) But I certainly wouldn't go as far as to suggest a radio equipped A/C needs to make every call at every non towered field just to appease pilots who lack in a primary PIC function (collision avoidance).
Glider towing... Hmmm how many of the gliders you tow are making radio calls? damn them lazy glider pilots....
Flying anywhere in the flatter part of the country a person can climb to a whopping 1000' AGL (that's a typical traffic pattern alt. in case you aren't following me) and dial in any of the more common non towered freq.s And low and behold you will hear radio chatter from no fewer than 10 surrounding fields, regarding everything from 10 mile finals, to what's on Saturdays menu down at the hootenany...
Now it may very well be a bit disconcerting for a low time pilot to look around and see an airplane where he heard no call, it is probably equally disconcerting (and hazardous) for said pilot to try and decipher all the rhetoric and nonsense being broadcast, and many times in a field where the offender is the only a/c flying...
The way I see it, those guys owe the lazy, stupid pilots (like me) a thank you, for forcing them to do the right thing and look out the window... PIC 101...
NineThreeKilo wrote: Meh, not really. Towing gliders in a ex-ag plane I never fly a downwind, base, final it's simply not cost effective for the operation, nor enjoyable for the next glider waiting for me on the ground.
Now this OTH.... well personally, I would consider anyone using cost and comfort to dictate how any, let alone every, landing goes???? Well that just may be construed as less than smart, and maybe even a tad lazy
With my very tiny bit of soaring and towing experience I tried to always fly a normal pattern. And both places seem to be as profitable as ever... YMMV
Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:23 pm
Re: Almost bent some metal, almost...
Maybe it's because I'm getting a bit long of tooth and have a bad attitude, but it's all I can do most days flying to keep from crawling across the radio waves and strangling the motor mouths on the radio. The ONLY thing keeping those guys airborne is a depressed mic switch. Must be some sort of f**king anti-gravity function.
"10 miles out" "9 miles out" "8 miles out" Blah, blah, blah... "On the 45, on the downwind, still downwind, even more downwind, left base, more left base, left final, final runway Zero 9, short final, real short final, I'm landing now, OK I'm off the runway, I'm taxiing now, taxiing for the gas pumps now. By that time I wish I had hard points on the wings with something that shoots.
Even better is the numbnuts at 9,000 ft AGL who announces flying across every single little airport while 8,000 feet above the pattern altitude. A SAM site is the only answer to that problem.
Arrrrggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Gump
"10 miles out" "9 miles out" "8 miles out" Blah, blah, blah... "On the 45, on the downwind, still downwind, even more downwind, left base, more left base, left final, final runway Zero 9, short final, real short final, I'm landing now, OK I'm off the runway, I'm taxiing now, taxiing for the gas pumps now. By that time I wish I had hard points on the wings with something that shoots.
Even better is the numbnuts at 9,000 ft AGL who announces flying across every single little airport while 8,000 feet above the pattern altitude. A SAM site is the only answer to that problem.
Arrrrggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Gump
Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:25 pm
Re: Almost bent some metal, almost...
You can elect to not use the radio, or you can elect to fly non-standard VFR entries/approaches to a non-towered field, but in my strong opinion, you can't do both at the same time without being a hazard to others.
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Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:35 pm
Re: Debatable procedures for pattern entry
Yeah you can do both. Safely.
I listen to pilots use these little strips in Northern Nevada make six or seven radio calls coming in (or more). Ears and eyeballs tell you that no one else is anywhere around, meanwhile 122.9 is blanked out for 10 other little airports where there might be a conflict.
It is amateurish and unprofessional.
Gump
I listen to pilots use these little strips in Northern Nevada make six or seven radio calls coming in (or more). Ears and eyeballs tell you that no one else is anywhere around, meanwhile 122.9 is blanked out for 10 other little airports where there might be a conflict.
It is amateurish and unprofessional.
Gump
Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:45 pm
Re: Almost bent some metal, almost...
Zane wrote:You can elect to not use the radio, or you can elect to fly non-standard VFR entries/approaches to a non-towered field, but in my strong opinion, you can't do both at the same time without being a hazard to others.
Well said Zane. Speed is relative though. To some of us following a King Air is painful, especially if the pilot thinks he is flying a 707. "Traffic permitting" has been around for quite a while but I'm sensing that more and more pilots don't really mean it. Bad position reports have been around longer and have always been just as frustrating.
John
KSBP
KSBP
Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:46 pm
Re: Debatable procedures for pattern entry
GumpAir wrote:It is amateurish and unprofessional.
Gump
Who am I to argue with an 18,000 hr veteran? BUT, I think it's arrogant and unprofessional to not make any call at all, and combine it with a non-standard approach. 6 or 7 calls, yes that's excessive and annoying. Those guys are talking to hear themselves talk. Frankly I suck at picking out traffic in some situations and terrain coloring, no matter how diligently I scan. One call though, not the repeated position reports, can alert anyone else intent on landing at the same time and place as me that the threat level is somewhat escalated and to start swiveling the head a little more rapidly, or *even*...work out an avoidance plan with the other guy if he's close. Takes 10 seconds. An airport with only one user, like your private strip at your house? Probably better to keep quiet as your call will do more harm than good. There's a distinction to be made though between say, Carson City, NV and Alpine County. One sees frequent traffic, one sees barely any.
There's a guy at Grants Pass that sounds like he thinks he's broadcasting a radio show...cheesy used car salesman face oozes through your headset. I wanna punch him in the face when I hear him on the CTAF. He also insists on doing straight-ins.
It seems to me that the people arguing against radio calls feel annoyed, and have a legitimate beef with tying up a frequency, but your annoyance doesn't trump the fact that a stated position report and intentions on the CTAF is safer that none at all. The fact that some of us become incensed when a pilot diverts from what many of us consider a standard pattern entry procedures tells me that there is an expected behavior around non-towered airports, and that playing along with that is also safer than going against the grain.
Everything in moderation, even the old gristledness.
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Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:17 pm
Re: Debatable procedures for pattern entry
Zane wrote:GumpAir wrote:It is amateurish and unprofessional.
Gump
Who am I to argue with an 18,000 hr veteran? BUT, I think it's arrogant and unprofessional to not make any call at all, and combine it with a non-standard approach. 6 or 7 calls, yes that's excessive and annoying. Frankly I suck at picking out traffic in some situations and terrain coloring, no matter how diligently I scan. One call though, not the repeated position reports, can alert anyone else intent on landing at the same time and place as me that the threat level is somewhat escalated.
Everything in moderation, even the old grizzliness.
The golden rule: Never say never....
I think I may have instigated a bit of a flame fest. So let me recap, by repeating, I most always listen, and yet rarely broadcast, while in a non towered environment...
Ditto for non standard approachs. They can and do exist, and they will continue to do so long after we are done flying. You can be of the first group, and whine and complain about the guy not flying the FAR / AIM recommended pattern. In hopes of not suffering high blood pressure, or becoming the hood ornament of a lowflyinG3. Or you can pull your head out of the radio, and other body parts and see and avoid.... it ain't rocket science.... fly the friggin airplane. At this point you are but a few minutes away from being done... why all the hub bub?
Arrogance? for not doing someone else's due diligence? I think not? The fact that someone else sucks at picking out traffic does not make me arrogant, it simply illustrates a weak point in their flying skills, perhaps more dual is in order? Collision avoidance is in the private pilot PTS. The best part of my last 'real' bi annual was when my CFI shut off the radio and told me to take us home. This occured at Chandler airport in Phoenix, a busy multi runway Class D, underlying and close to a busier Class B. Best BFR experience I've ever had.
The mindset that everyone should be talking and anyone who is not is stupid only accomplishes two thing.
1) it sets you up to be completely oblivious to the countless, nordo a/c out there.
and
2) it displays your arrogance, and shortcomings...
Humbly stupid, and lazy... Rob
Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:22 pm
Re: Debatable procedures for pattern entry
Zane wrote:There's a distinction to be made though between say, Carson City, NV and Alpine County. One sees frequent traffic, one sees barely any.
Exactly, and I'm not saying turn off the Comm radios at all. But what I am saying is use them in a professional manner, and use some common sense and courtesy.
My beef is the guys (and gals) who can't make that distinction, and like you say, "like to hear themselves talk." Because while they're blabbing, a couple guys 50 miles away might have a real conflict that can be resolved with a couple quick radio calls, but they can't get a word in edgewise on the frequency.
Gump
Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:28 pm
Re: Debatable procedures for pattern entry
Rob wrote:Arrogance? for not doing someone else's due diligence? I think not? The fact that someone else sucks at picking out traffic does not make me arrogant, it simply illustrates a weak point in their flying skills,
Collide mid-air and you're both dead. Where does it get you pinning it on the other guy?
We all drive around people we think are shitty drivers everyday, but damned if I will not do everything in my power to avoid colliding, even when it is their fault/lack of diligence/poor eyesight/poor planning. The thought of colliding mid-air with another aircraft sends shivers down my spine, the final seconds of uncontrolled spiraling to the ground must be way worse than mixing grills at an intersection in town.
The fact that anyone would eschew any of the various means of collision avoidance frightens me.
I learned to fly in NORDO aircraft 15 years ago. Using the radio doesn't affect my ability to look for aircraft. But it's nice to hear someone respond "we're here too" to a position report that you've just made.
I think we're all saying much the same thing here, but some of the emphasis in certain points can sounds contradictory in the midst of the argument.
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Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:32 pm
Re: Debatable procedures for pattern entry
Wow, Z- you often put into words what I'm thinking and can't quite get across. I agree that motormouths are annoying on the radio, but it's a whole hell of a lot less annoying than being balled up at the approach end of the runway with another airplane stuck up your ass, which is what I was within tens of feet of being a few months ago.
Two of us in the airplane, we had heard a garbled radio call about someone being in the pattern but couldn't get back to him. Four sets of (relatively) experienced eyeballs swivelling like mad, yet we could not spot the incoming traffic until I heard him throttling up just behind and above us.
I think I just illustrated with my story above how even with some radio contact and knowing another aircraft was nearby we couldn't spot it. And I have PERFECT vision. I don't think more dual wil make it any better.
My personal opinion is that of you have a working radio and choose not to use it, then you're taking away one of the imperfect tools to avoid midair collisions. I wouldn't mind so much if it only affected the guy too lazy to key the mike, but it's jeopardizing the lives of others.
Two of us in the airplane, we had heard a garbled radio call about someone being in the pattern but couldn't get back to him. Four sets of (relatively) experienced eyeballs swivelling like mad, yet we could not spot the incoming traffic until I heard him throttling up just behind and above us.
Arrogance? for not doing someone else's due diligence? I think not? The fact that someone else sucks at picking out traffic does not make me arrogant, it simply illustrates a weak point in their flying skills, perhaps more dual is in order?
I think I just illustrated with my story above how even with some radio contact and knowing another aircraft was nearby we couldn't spot it. And I have PERFECT vision. I don't think more dual wil make it any better.
My personal opinion is that of you have a working radio and choose not to use it, then you're taking away one of the imperfect tools to avoid midair collisions. I wouldn't mind so much if it only affected the guy too lazy to key the mike, but it's jeopardizing the lives of others.
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Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:39 pm
Re: Debatable procedures for pattern entry
Because while they're blabbing, a couple guys 50 miles away might have a real conflict that can be resolved with a couple quick radio calls, but they can't get a word in edgewise on the frequency.
I don't worry too much about that. RF power dissipates as the cube of the distance, which means you'll hear the 4 watt radio in the pattern over top of even the 12 watt radio 50 miles away every time.
I think the lesson here is to make informative succinct blab-free pattern entry announcements as suggested in the AIM. There are a lot of guys out there with far more experience than me. Fortunately some of 'em wrote down some things I can learn from without having to repeat mistakes that have already been made.
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Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:46 pm
Re: Debatable procedures for pattern entry
maulewaco wrote:Zane,
What color is the cheese head radio clown you are taking about? White & Red C172?
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