mtv wrote:

C185D wrote:

akgreg wrote:so I went and talked to the Airframes AK guys about my desire to put the Desser tire on their 10x6.50 wheel and the response I got was less than what I would call professional. Zero desire to try and see what could be done to come up with a solution. Just bad mouthing another company. I sure do hope that Grove comes out with their 10x6.5 tubeless wheel sooner than later. I think they will be a great combination for those wanting something in between Air Hawks and Bushwheels.

I looked at doing the same thing and just drilling the valve stem hole myself. I'm glad to see that ABW has some competition, they make great quality products but 1800$s for a 31" tire is insane. And yes for all the keyboard heroes out there I KNOW it's not cheap to get PMA approval or an STC but they would sell a lot more tires if they were just a bit cheaper. The Grove wheel sounds nice but I would never run a tubeless tire, it's just asking for trouble, the safest bet is putting screws in the beads.

Actually, since you're close, you should go to ABW and get an idea of all the hand work that goes into those tires. And, yes, the BIG difference is that Bushwheels are STCd. And that is huge. Just because the Dessers are TSOd does not mean you can just bolt them on, unless of course, you're Experimental.

MTV

Yes MTV I know if you drill a hole in the wheel its experimental use only and yes I know that the tires aren't STCd thanks for reminding me. And yes I know how the tires are made but their TOO expensive along with all the other parts they have. I along with everybody else still buy their products but that's only because they are the only guys that sell them and they know it.

mtv wrote:

C185D wrote:

akgreg wrote:so I went and talked to the Airframes AK guys about my desire to put the Desser tire on their 10x6.50 wheel and the response I got was less than what I would call professional. Zero desire to try and see what could be done to come up with a solution. Just bad mouthing another company. I sure do hope that Grove comes out with their 10x6.5 tubeless wheel sooner than later. I think they will be a great combination for those wanting something in between Air Hawks and Bushwheels.

I looked at doing the same thing and just drilling the valve stem hole myself. I'm glad to see that ABW has some competition, they make great quality products but 1800$s for a 31" tire is insane. And yes for all the keyboard heroes out there I KNOW it's not cheap to get PMA approval or an STC but they would sell a lot more tires if they were just a bit cheaper. The Grove wheel sounds nice but I would never run a tubeless tire, it's just asking for trouble, the safest bet is putting screws in the beads.

Actually, since you're close, you should go to ABW and get an idea of all the hand work that goes into those tires. And, yes, the BIG difference is that Bushwheels are STCd. And that is huge. Just because the Dessers are TSOd does not mean you can just bolt them on, unless of course, you're Experimental.

MTV

Yes MTV I know if you drill a hole in the wheel its experimental use only and that the tires aren't STCd thanks for reminding me. And yes I know how the tires are made but their TOO expensive along with all the other parts they have. I along with everybody else still buy their products but that's only because they are the only guys that sell them and they know it.

What is wrong with the 10x10 ABW wheel?

Weight - additional 3 lbs per wheel
Overall profile - don't want 10" wide wheels

I just looking at the cost to build up a setup of Gar Aeros vs the ABW 10x10 and basically said no way. Either I have to butcher my current 6.50 wheel or deal with 6lbs of extra weight.

Yes MTV I know if you drill a hole in the wheel its experimental use only and that the tires aren't STCd thanks for reminding me. And yes I know how the tires are made but their TOO expensive along with all the other parts they have. I along with everybody else still buy their products but that's only because they are the only guys that sell them and they know it.[/quote]

Well, as you say, there's room for competition......we'll be anxiously awaiting your products.....STCd of course.

ABW have been in production for quite a few years now, and I don't see anyone really competing at least with respect to tires. The fact that most everything ABW makes is STCd on a wide spectrum of aircraft, compared to Gar Aero wheel adapters, which have been available for ~ 30 years or so and still have zero STCs speaks volumes, particularly as hard as it is to get field approvals.

What is an STC worth? A lot if you're certified.

MTV

Seems like a moot point, seeing as Desser have stated they intend to STC their products. No doubt Grove will come out with matching wheels, tube and tubeless. They are business-savvy characters. Just a matter of time, it would seem.

Battson wrote:Seems like a moot point, seeing as Desser have stated they intend to STC their products. No doubt Grove will come out with matching wheels, tube and tubeless. They are business-savvy characters. Just a matter of time, it would seem.

And, I sincerely hope you're right. That said, the STC process isn't all that easy. I hope they get the approvals, but it is certainly not a done deal, customer service or no......time will tell. In the meantime, unless you're experimental, if you want big tires, ABW is still the only game in town.


MTV

mtv wrote:Yes MTV I know if you drill a hole in the wheel its experimental use only and that the tires aren't STCd thanks for reminding me. And yes I know how the tires are made but their TOO expensive along with all the other parts they have. I along with everybody else still buy their products but that's only because they are the only guys that sell them and they know it.

Well, as you say, there's room for competition......we'll be anxiously awaiting your products.....STCd of course.

ABW have been in production for quite a few years now, and I don't see anyone really competing at least with respect to tires. The fact that most everything ABW makes is STCd on a wide spectrum of aircraft, compared to Gar Aero wheel adapters, which have been available for ~ 30 years or so and still have zero STCs speaks volumes, particularly as hard as it is to get field approvals.

What is an STC worth? A lot if you're certified.

MTV[/quote]

I never said that I was going to produce a wheel, I'm just going to modify one for EXPERIMENTAL use. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you have a monopoly on a market you can charge whatever you want. I know STCs are not easy to get but there are a lot of manufacturers that don't charge a arm and a leg for their products. All I'm saying is that they are over priced on their products.

C185D wrote:

mtv wrote:Yes MTV I know if you drill a hole in the wheel its experimental use only and that the tires aren't STCd thanks for reminding me. And yes I know how the tires are made but their TOO expensive along with all the other parts they have. I along with everybody else still buy their products but that's only because they are the only guys that sell them and they know it.

Well, as you say, there's room for competition......we'll be anxiously awaiting your products.....STCd of course.

ABW have been in production for quite a few years now, and I don't see anyone really competing at least with respect to tires. The fact that most everything ABW makes is STCd on a wide spectrum of aircraft, compared to Gar Aero wheel adapters, which have been available for ~ 30 years or so and still have zero STCs speaks volumes, particularly as hard as it is to get field approvals.

What is an STC worth? A lot if you're certified.

MTV

I never said that I was going to produce a wheel, I'm just going to modify one for EXPERIMENTAL use. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you have a monopoly on a market you can charge whatever you want. I know STCs are not easy to get but there are a lot of manufacturers that don't charge a arm and a leg for their products. All I'm saying is that they are over priced on their products.[/quote]

Actually, while I agree that their prices are high, in any market, the "fair price" is whatever the market will pay. Look at the prices of nearly anything that says "airplane", like a Carbon Cub kit, or any of a million other things. People are lining up to buy those and I see Bushwheels on a lot of aircraft that rarely if ever land off airport.

For the record, I sincerely hope that Desser is successful in getting their tires STCd.....competition is good for everyone.

But in the meantime, if you want good quality parts, go to ABW. Or, buy one of the French built Scott tailwheels, and wish you hadn't. ABW built and PMAd a better version of that tailwheel, and it's about the only game in town now.

I think Desser sees a market, but they haven't quite got the full package (tires, wheels, tubes, STC etc) together just yet. I hope they do, but for me at least, the need for ten inch wheels is a non starter.

In the meantime, the experimental folks may jump on that bandwagon.....good for them.

I just can't see bad mouthing ABW.....without them, we'd be stuck with crappy tailwheels and some other stuff.

MTV

mtv wrote: I just can't see bad mouthing ABW.....without them, we'd be stuck with crappy tailwheels and some other stuff.

MTV

Very true... But it's important to keep in mind that the innovative and amazing ABW you are referring to is no longer. It remains to be seen if Airframes can bring the same quality and customer service to the brand. Time will tell...

bigrenna wrote:

mtv wrote: I just can't see bad mouthing ABW.....without them, we'd be stuck with crappy tailwheels and some other stuff.

MTV

Very true... But it's important to keep in mind that the innovative and amazing ABW you are referring to is no longer. It remains to be seen if Airframes can bring the same quality and customer service to the brand. Time will tell...

That too is quite true. I think that the transition from Oregon based manufacture to getting everything up and running in Alaska speaks volumes about the current management, but as you say, time will tell.

MTV

iPat wrote:If one can obtain an approval, Cessna’s 188 AgWagon with the optional 8.50-10 tire used a Cleveland 7.50-10 main wheel assy pn 40-101 or 40-101A (both tube type, but there is a tubeless variant according to Parker.com Product Catalog AWBPC0001-18USA).....

FWIW Preferred Airparts carries a lot of new old stock (NOS) parts. I bought a Cleveland wheel from them several years ago for a very reasonable price. They might have some of these Cessna wheels in stock.

The Cessna 310 uses a 6.50x10 MLG tire, I think I've heard of people using 310 wheels for 850x10 or similar installations, although I dunno the p/n, axle size, etc.

hotrod180 wrote:

iPat wrote:If one can obtain an approval, Cessna’s 188 AgWagon with the optional 8.50-10 tire used a Cleveland 7.50-10 main wheel assy pn 40-101 or 40-101A (both tube type, but there is a tubeless variant according to Parker.com Product Catalog AWBPC0001-18USA).....

FWIW Preferred Airparts carries a lot of new old stock (NOS) parts. I bought a Cleveland wheel from them several years ago for a very reasonable price. They might have some of these Cessna wheels in stock.

The Cessna 310 uses a 6.50x10 MLG tire, I think I've heard of people using 310 wheels for 850x10 or similar installations, although I dunno the p/n, axle size, etc.

Several light/medium twins used similar wheels/brakes. An old friend in Alaska ran Navajo Chieftan wheels and brakes on his Super Cub under a field approval, and 10 inch tires. Those wheels were 1 1/2 axle, I believe.

Could work for Experimental, but probably pretty heavy.

MTV

Interesting side note...getting a STC for a tire is actually pretty simple, or so I've been told. A friend who manufactures (lots of) aircraft parts wanted to run Goodyear Blimp's on his 180, so he was going to have his engineer draw up the STC. Figured it'd cost about $8,000 for all 100-series Cessna's. A very simple process according to him, though he does a huge volume of business with the FAA and might be more efficient at it than most.

Unfortunately he decided he didn't like the tires, so the project died before it got anywhere.

I guess most engineers just don't think there is enough of a market to make the project profitable, especially for a product that the manufacturer could quit producing at any moment. The lack of STC's seems to be much more a factor of economics than technical difficulty. That makes sense...how many people out there run oversized tires, and how many sets are they likely to buy? It's just not a big market.

Regardless, I'm looking forward to a larger STC tire that doesn't cost what a bushwheel costs.

hotrod180 wrote:

iPat wrote:If one can obtain an approval, Cessna’s 188 AgWagon with the optional 8.50-10 tire used a Cleveland 7.50-10 main wheel assy pn 40-101 or 40-101A (both tube type, but there is a tubeless variant according to Parker.com Product Catalog AWBPC0001-18USA).....

FWIW Preferred Airparts carries a lot of new old stock (NOS) parts. I bought a Cleveland wheel from them several years ago for a very reasonable price. They might have some of these Cessna wheels in stock.

The Cessna 310 uses a 6.50x10 MLG tire, I think I've heard of people using 310 wheels for 850x10 or similar installations, although I dunno the p/n, axle size, etc.

I have a set and they are a bit narrow, but they work great, Will be trying set of wheels off of a T-Bone soon to see how they work!
Does take a bit of rocket science to get the 6" brake disc drilled correctly on the wheel!!

mtv wrote:ABW have been in production for quite a few years now, and I don't see anyone really competing at least with respect to tires. The fact that most everything ABW makes is STCd on a wide spectrum of aircraft, compared to Gar Aero wheel adapters, which have been available for ~ 30 years or so and still have zero STCs speaks volumes, particularly as hard as it is to get field approvals.

What is an STC worth? A lot if you're certified.

MTV

Hmmm .....
I guess I will break out a volume?

Gar Aero adapters have quite an extensive list of aircraft approved on their STC first issued in 1981.
http://www.alaskatundratires.com/pdf/GarAeroAML06242009.pdf

I have 2 sets they work just fine. and I have an ABW 1010 set it is a little cleaner setup though

Good catch, my bad. I had an early set years ago on a Cub and that had to be field approved.

It was their tailwheel I was thinking of, actually:

http://www.alaskatundratires.com/tailwheel.html

"Our tailwheel has been field approved for decades....working on an STC now.....

Now that ABW has basically dried up sales of our non-approved tailwheel.....

Again, I hope that Desser prevails and gets approvals for a bunch of airplanes.

MTV

People may be thinking of the GarAero fat t/w fork kit, which as far as I know is all field approvals-- no STC's.

Talked with Desser at Oshkosh about their 29" and 31" bush tires. Digging through a few of the reps I finally got them to tell me that they expect an STC the fall with a family large AML... that definitely includes the 180/185. As I remember it will use the Grove wheel and the ABI 10" wheel will not be included.

gunny