Does a seaplane base turn into ice runway in the winter?

Superdan00 wrote:Does a seaplane base turn into ice runway in the winter?

EVERY lake turns into an ice runway in a COLD winter....

Are you talking about something that is tower controlled, or???

Example: In Fairbanks, AK, there is a 5400 foot, buouy to buouy float pond (mostly the result of mining gravel for runways....a GREAT move). It is marked with buouys in summer. When it's about to freeze, the airport maintenance folks go out and remove the buouys. At that point, the float pond is officially closed, but the tower (with the A/P Manager's blessing) does not prevent continued use. The tower simply won't clear you to land on the float pond. When you call inbound to the float pond, the Tower will state "the Float Pond is closed, landing in the float pond is at your own risk, fly left downwind, and notify me when you are down and clear" or words to that effect. You can land and take off at will, just notifying the tower of your intent.

Sames goes when it freezes over. Eventually, Airport Maintenance goes out and marks a landing zone on the ice, and then the float pond is open to ski equipped airplanes. When the ice starts going bad in spring, once again, they remove the markers, and landing is at your own risk.

It's a great system, and works well, though some folks who've never been there get a little confused when the tower won't clear them to land or takeoff, but the ATC folks are good about explaining the drill.

Just make certain you've got good enough ice for operations. Dropping one through the ice is less fun than you can imagine.

MTV

Superdan00 wrote:Does a seaplane base turn into ice runway in the winter?

Up here in Canada if the Float Base is listed in the Canada Flight Supplement (The "Waterdrome Supplement" in this case) there will be a note in the publication if a winter runway is used. There may also be a note regarding an ice runway at land aerodromes if the ice runway is located within 5 miles of the land aerodrome. See Yellowknife for an example...they put in an ice strip in at the float base every year and the ice runway is published in information about both the land aerodrome and float aerodrome.

If there is no note about ice runways, then the Float Base Aerodrome is considered closed once the ice is on (but it's still Registered, Certified, or Private unless the operator notifies Transport Canada otherwise). Once the ice is off in spring, the site is considered open for float operations. The operator will issue a NOTAM to that effect (well...they are supposed to, but they often don't)

Floatplane Bases that do have ice runways publish this information in the Water Supplement and will issue a NOTAM when the runway opens in winter and when it closes in the spring. They may also update ruway conditions by NOTAM...so be sure to check the NOTAMs if you're going to use one of these sites.

From what I understand from my associates in the FAA, it's the same in the US...largely because of agreements in place under ICAO, Canada and the US deal with this issue in the same way (with some minor ICAO approved "deviations").

All this is for "Certified" or "Registered" Aerodromes only. Anything goes at sites that are not published in an ICAO accepted publication.

I wouldn't show up a float base in the winter expecting to land on an ice runway (nevermind trying to get fuel) unless it is clearly published that there is an ice runway in sevice and fuel is available in the winter. For un-published sites you need really good local knowledge

Oh ya...and be sure your bird has the right gear under it before you use a float base in the winter You can always land on an ice runway with floats (I used to do it at the end of each season for "Change-over") but taking off is nearly impossible

I hope this answers your question...PM if you need more information...I work with airports and float bases for a living (mostly in Northern Canada) but I have associates with the FAA that could provide more "American Specific" info if you need it.

John

The seaplane base turns into a runway in our area. We don't have a plowed runway, but pine boughs are out marking the landing area for ski planes, which are already using it. We currently have 14 inches of ice and will have a couple more feet before ice-out (end of April-early May). Almost all of the planes using the seaplane base in the winter are flying out to remote lakes to fish, slush is always on everyones radar, even at the seaplane base. As Mike mentioned, going through the ice can ruin your day, one of our flying club members did that at the mouth of the river by the seaplane base one year, the wings held it above the ice, it took a helicopter to lift it out.

Here is a picture taken a couple of years ago, of a Norseman taking off from our local seaplane base.



Steve

I know of a case where an over zealous LE officer cited a guy for landing on wheels on the ice at an approved "seaplane base" in winter. The officer argued it was illegal to land a wheel plane in that area. The judge agreed with the pilot...if its legal to land on the water, it is still legal to land on the water when the water is frozen.

An eminently intelligent decision. Your mileage may vary.

MTV

{Quote}Oh ya...and be sure your bird has the right gear under it before you use a float base in the winter You can always land on an ice runway with floats (I used to do it at the end of each season for "Change-over") but taking off is nearly impossible
John[/quote]

Take off is possible on ice with floats, did it a few times. Also have seen pictures of beavers on floats landing on glaciers... Don't think I would try that

So then, is Johnson Lake frozen over yet, or the canals?

DonC wrote:Take off is possible on ice with floats, did it a few times.

I'd think that direction control would be tough on floats on ice/snow.

Talking about landing and taking off on ice, on the hull. After a umm double engine failure??

The engines didn't fail....they ran out of fuel.

For a few years, I took our cub from Kodiak to Anchorage for gear change to wheels. Lot longer float season in Kodiak, so landed on Lake Hood ice on floats. Then in spring it went back on floats and flew off the ice and back to Kodiak and open water. Never liked the ice takeoff, cause snow was pretty rough. With snow, direction control is not bad due to keels. On glare ice, which I did once in a Beaver, directional control is non existent.

Bob Munro of Kenmore Air landed Beavers and before that Seabees on glaciers in support of miners and scientists. Not my cup of tea, but.....

MTV

mtv wrote: Never liked the ice takeoff, cause snow was pretty rough. With snow, direction control is not bad due to keels. On glare ice, which I did once in a Beaver, directional control is non existent.

Bob Munro of Kenmore Air landed Beavers and before that Seabees on glaciers in support of miners and scientists. Not my cup of tea, but.....

MTV

Mike glare ice is tough on skis as well, especially with a cross wind. The
C206 on straight skis was a challenge trying to keep it lined up with the canal at Lake Hood. I swear the dam thing would speed up after touch down Sliding down the lake sideways at 40 mph is not fun More then once been out on the strut dragging my feet trying to slow her down Never really helped. Plane would slide at idle Had to be thinking way ahead of it and pray for snow

mtv wrote:Bob Munro of Kenmore Air landed Beavers and before that Seabees on glaciers in support of miners and scientists. Not my cup of tea, but.....

MTV

Great documentation of this in "Success on the Step, Flying with Kenmore Air"

DonC wrote:Sliding down the lake sideways at 40 mph is not fun More then once been out on the strut dragging my feet trying to slow her down Never really helped.

*Insert <Do Not Try This at Home> here. Or at least read Jay Hammond's autobiography first!

-DP

DonC wrote:Sliding down the lake sideways at 40 mph is not fun More then once been out on the strut dragging my feet trying to slow her down Never really helped.

*Insert <Do Not Try This at Home> here. Or at least read Jay Hammond's autobiography first!

-DP[/quote]

Knew the Gov. First time I met him was on the Mulchatna River. Had a plane load of Salmon fishermen on a day trip. I knew where he hide his boat on a side slough so took the chance that he was in Juneau running the state......wrong just got to fishing and the Turquoise C185 flew by and circled us....dam caught in the act Had a note on the plane when we got back "Please stay out of my boat ....thanks Jay Hammond" Danced with his wife Bella at the BOT in Nome during the Iditarod when she was there to give the trophy for the winner. A very classy lady and the best Gov. Alaska has ever had. "Permanent Fund" Is his Legacy

DonC wrote:

DonC wrote:Sliding down the lake sideways at 40 mph is not fun More then once been out on the strut dragging my feet trying to slow her down Never really helped.

*Insert <Do Not Try This at Home> here. Or at least read Jay Hammond's autobiography first!

-DP

Knew the Gov. First time I met him was on the Mulchatna River. Had a plane load of Salmon fishermen on a day trip. I knew where he hide his boat on a side slough so took the chance that he was in Juneau running the state......wrong just got to fishing and the Turquoise C185 flew by and circled us....dam caught in the act Had a note on the plane when we got back "Please stay out of my boat ....thanks Jay Hammond" Danced with his wife Bella at the BOT in Nome during the Iditarod when she was there to give the trophy for the winner. A very classy lady and Jay was the best Gov. Alaska has ever had. "Permanent Fund" Is his Legacy[/quote]


Had a similar experience with Bob Reeves....was down town looking for a parking space near Penny's. No spots to be had, saw a space in a office bldg. lot next to Penney's jumped in and saw a sign in the empty space Bob Reeves Didn't think he would be coming in snowing etc... went shopping came back had a note on my windshield Note said "Stay the F*** out of my parking spot Bob Reeves" still have the note somewhere

DonC wrote:

DonC wrote:

DonC wrote:Sliding down the lake sideways at 40 mph is not fun More then once been out on the strut dragging my feet trying to slow her down Never really helped.

*Insert <Do Not Try This at Home> here. Or at least read Jay Hammond's autobiography first!

-DP

Knew the Gov. First time I met him was on the Mulchatna River. Had a plane load of Salmon fishermen on a day trip. I knew where he hide his boat on a side slough so took the chance that he was in Juneau running the state......wrong just got to fishing and the Turquoise C185 flew by and circled us....dam caught in the act Had a note on the plane when we got back "Please stay out of my boat ....thanks Jay Hammond" Danced with his wife Bella at the BOT in Nome during the Iditarod when she was there to give the trophy for the winner. A very classy lady and Jay was the best Gov. Alaska has ever had. "Permanent Fund" Is his Legacy.


Had a similar experience with Bob Reeves....was down town looking for a parking space near Penny's. No spots to be had, saw a space in a office bldg. lot next to Penney's jumped in and saw a sign in the empty space Bob Reeves Didn't think he would be coming in snowing etc... went shopping came back had a note on my windshield Note said "Stay the F*** out of my parking spot Bob Reeves" still have the not somewhere

Those are priceless!

When the landing surface is slick, it doesn't matter weather you are on skis or wheels, as you slow down below the flying speed, you can kick the tail around with a jab of the throttle and the plane will spin as long as you keep the tail going and the plane will still move along the original landing track. Fat smooth tires on slick surface will cut donuts better than a car in the parking lot. I could make two full circles in a cub when we would started spinning at about 20 mph. On the first time I tried it I didn't warn the guy in the back seat and he sure did make a lot of noise back there.

The ticket is practice stopping the spin so as to have the tail pointing the way you are going and use the prop to stop.

I took a biologist for a ride on skis like that once, I think he would have walked home if it hadn't been so far and so cold.

goldfinch wrote:When the landing surface is slick, it doesn't matter weather you are on skis or wheels, as you slow down below the flying speed, you can kick the tail around with a jab of the throttle and the plane will spin as long as you keep the tail going and the plane will still move along the original landing track. Fat smooth tires on slick surface will cut donuts better than a car in the parking lot. I could make two full circles in a cub when we would started spinning at about 20 mph. On the first time I tried it I didn't warn the guy in the back seat and he sure did make a lot of noise back there.

The ticket is practice stopping the spin so as to have the tail pointing the way you are going and use the prop to stop.

I took a biologist for a ride on skis like that once, I think he would have walked home if it hadn't been so far and so cold.

I always wanted to try that Chip....just never had the nerve to try it ....I always thought it would work...sounds good in principal You got any deer up there ?

From what I hear, but have not done, the intentional ground loop works most of the time but...two years ago a local C180 on skis ground looped on a lake, enough gear and wing damage that is was totaled (now being rebuilt by the new owner). I used to spin snowmobiles on glare ice in my younger days , have seen that not work so well at times either.

Steve

Don't forget..most skis have "skegs" or "wear strips" depending if you're talking to the FAA. Get going sideways on skis and hook a skeg on an imperfection in the ice, and that may be enough to leave the gear leg right there.

Tires a lot more forgiving. Had to pick a guy up mid winter on Karluk Lake. He'd drilled the ice and it was solid. Beaver on amphibs...I figured no problem, land on wheels, stop, pick guy up, then takeoff straight ahead. Ice was so slick you could hardly stand...fell on my ass getting down off the float.

I was nervous about weak ice close to shore, so had landed a ways out, fortunately, it turned out.

Fired up, and as soon as prop was turning, plane was moving....oops. Pushed up power smoothly, and plane started arcing to left, with right brake locked.....shit.

Fiddled with it some more, then just started pushing up power, with plane spinning to the left....full right rudder. Luckily, when the rudder finally got enough air fow over it to work, plane straightened out, pointed more or less straight down the lake.

We'd made three or four full circles before straightening out. Passenger thought I was a great pilot. I was thanking my lucky stars...no talent involved. Take em where you find em.

Don,

You were lucky your car wasn't towed....RCR was a notorious Grump. Guy worked for us in CDB was his cousin, and always stayed with him when in ANC. Had some great RCR stories.

Jay Hammond was the best thing ever happened to AK. His books are great reading. Only met him a couple times, but very gracious.

MTV

cubscout wrote:So then, is Johnson Lake frozen over yet, or the canals?

I was actually thinking about Harlan county, it has a seabase. Johnson looks very inviting but 900 cabins all watching is a little to much publicity. Have you been to jlake? They have a private grass strip also.