TR wrote:Restrictor plates were not intended for the comfort of the cabin occupants, they are designed to mitigate negative effects on the engine when operating in temperatures below those in which the systems (induction, oil coolers and cooling pressure boxes) were designed. Most operators will never have a need for them, however, for those that operate in these temperatures, they are a method to keep the engine in its "as designed" operating parameters (oil temps, cyl head temps and fuel/air ratios).

I do not get wrapped up with what the temperature placards state. Remember that when these devices were made, the "as delivered" aircraft instrumentation was/is crude at best. Now with accurate multi-probe systems, the operator knows with accuracy what the temps are as long as the probes are placed correctly. For example, I typically have a portion of my oil cooler covered even in the summer to maintain proper oil temperatures. There are those that believe these devices are not warranted, that is their opinion, however, as an operator who has operated thousands of hours in subzero temps (coldest -45), I believe otherwise and have the data in terms of overhaul conditions to back it up. Honor the parameters and you will be rewarded with engine longevity. The first step in proper engine care and feeding is installing a multi-probe system. The second step is actually using the supplied data to make the appropriate changes to keep the engine in its "as designed" parameters.

TR

mtv wrote:

TR wrote:Restrictor plates were not intended for the comfort of the cabin occupants, they are designed to mitigate negative effects on the engine when operating in temperatures below those in which the systems (induction, oil coolers and cooling pressure boxes) were designed. Most operators will never have a need for them, however, for those that operate in these temperatures, they are a method to keep the engine in its "as designed" operating parameters (oil temps, cyl head temps and fuel/air ratios).

I do not get wrapped up with what the temperature placards state. Remember that when these devices were made, the "as delivered" aircraft instrumentation was/is crude at best. Now with accurate multi-probe systems, the operator knows with accuracy what the temps are as long as the probes are placed correctly. For example, I typically have a portion of my oil cooler covered even in the summer to maintain proper oil temperatures. There are those that believe these devices are not warranted, that is their opinion, however, as an operator who has operated thousands of hours in subzero temps (coldest -45), I believe otherwise and have the data in terms of overhaul conditions to back it up. Honor the parameters and you will be rewarded with engine longevity. The first step in proper engine care and feeding is installing a multi-probe system. The second step is actually using the supplied data to make the appropriate changes to keep the engine in its "as designed" parameters.

TR

Walk around the ramp on a -40 day in Fairbanks and see how many of those cooling air inlet block off plates you see on Cessnas. Induction restrictors, yes. Again, the problem there is that air temps a thousand feet up are much warmer, so unless you plan to never get over 500 feet...... I operated these engines for 20 years and in a lot of cold weather out of there, and only installed those cooling air inlet block off plates once. Maintenance never complained about my engines, and they generally went to tbo without unusual issues.

But, again, these were generally fuel injected engines.

TR wrote:

mtv wrote:

TR wrote:Restrictor plates were not intended for the comfort of the cabin occupants, they are designed to mitigate negative effects on the engine when operating in temperatures below those in which the systems (induction, oil coolers and cooling pressure boxes) were designed. Most operators will never have a need for them, however, for those that operate in these temperatures, they are a method to keep the engine in its "as designed" operating parameters (oil temps, cyl head temps and fuel/air ratios).

I do not get wrapped up with what the temperature placards state. Remember that when these devices were made, the "as delivered" aircraft instrumentation was/is crude at best. Now with accurate multi-probe systems, the operator knows with accuracy what the temps are as long as the probes are placed correctly. For example, I typically have a portion of my oil cooler covered even in the summer to maintain proper oil temperatures. There are those that believe these devices are not warranted, that is their opinion, however, as an operator who has operated thousands of hours in subzero temps (coldest -45), I believe otherwise and have the data in terms of overhaul conditions to back it up. Honor the parameters and you will be rewarded with engine longevity. The first step in proper engine care and feeding is installing a multi-probe system. The second step is actually using the supplied data to make the appropriate changes to keep the engine in its "as designed" parameters.

TR

Walk around the ramp on a -40 day in Fairbanks and see how many of those cooling air inlet block off plates you see on Cessnas. Induction restrictors, yes. Again, the problem there is that air temps a thousand feet up are much warmer, so unless you plan to never get over 500 feet...... I operated these engines for 20 years and in a lot of cold weather out of there, and only installed those cooling air inlet block off plates once. Maintenance never complained about my engines, and they generally went to tbo without unusual issues.

But, again, these were generally fuel injected engines.

Good for you and your "methods". You appear more intent on proving me wrong than including value added data. What the "other guy" does, is his/her business. I know what preparation works for me and my specific mission, and ultimately my wallet. I ran carbureted piston engines from 0 SMOH to TBO (and beyond) while operating out of interior Alaska with the bulk of time at subzero temps (Bob at BJ's in Palmer overhauled three engines for me, providing excellent feedback on my operating procedures). Relating to aircraft maintenance and the care and feeding of my engines, I do lots of things the "other guys" do not. I base my actions on education and research as well as my own (and others) anecdotal experience.

My objective by participation on this site is simple, education. I desire folks make decisions based on good data. Anyone desiring additional or supporting data is welcome to contact me direct and I can state fact as separate from my opinion to validate my statements. Just because a procedure appears to "work" does not make it the correct nor exclusive method. Herein lies the value in mediums such as this, differing thoughts and experiences.

TR

StillLearning wrote: Its obviously getting cold again, the time of year that I am reminded of how not great my carb heat works. I run an O-520 with a Knisely dual exhaust on a '53. ....

AEROPOD wrote:I think the purpose of the restriction plate on the 180 is to allow the engine to get to ~29-30" of manifold AND get to a throttle position where the economizer valve comes in to play. The extreme low DA at those temps may allow ~29-30" manifold pressure at lower throttle positions where the economizer valve doesn't open to allow the additional fuel flow required for that high power setting.

If we are interested in continuing the digression into winterizing from the initial question of this thread, one may want to take a look at insulating the crankcase vent. I believe that was part of the Winterization kit as well.

StillLearning wrote:I used to fly in below zero temperatures, even flew my 2 stroke powered kit plane down to -24 once, it was drafty and had no heat of any kind. But, flying my 180 when its below zero isn't much fun, the heater doesn't work that well either and it has a pretty spartan interior.

My original question was if anyone had found a solution for more effective carb heat on 53- 55. My mufflers have flame cones, they have bolts all over through the can (inside and outside of the muffler), flapper and all related parts are in good shape and are rigged properly. Its just that at cold, single digits or less, full carb heat often barely gets the carb temp gauge above 32 or so unless you are running power higher than a low cruise setting.

What got me started trying to find better carb heat was a takeoff a couple years ago, my carb had been freshly overhauled and was corrected from the early PPonk set up and was now putting out 24gph or so at WOT at 5900'. That was way more fuel than I had ever seen. This day was the first day with low temperatures since the carb overhaul and re-jet, the temperature was -2, plane had been plugged in all night and oil temp at the cooler was about 85 when I pulled it out of the hangar. I ran on the ground long enough to get the factory oil temp into operating range, while the temp sensor after the cooler was dropping into the 30's. Cylinder head temps were in the 200's. I took off from KGWS, about 300 or 400 above the runway, now over the river with limited options I watched my manifold pressure dropping rapidly, carb temp was in the single digits, I pulled full carb heat while frantically leaning the mixture. Engine was running very rough, way down on power, it was not a great feeling to see the carb temp very (seemingly) slowly up to 30 degrees and finally above freezing but only up to mid 30's. Engine was still running like shit while I made the turn back to the airport, but getting better. By the time I landed, it was running pretty normal. I checked everything over, found nothing wrong, got back in and took off with a leaner mixture and partial carb heat.

I flew over the KEGE, with no issue, but as I descended from 9000 down to the airport about 10 miles out with low power, I watched the oil temp gauge after the cooler drop all the way down into the 60's. It sat on the ramp, still a little below zero, for about half an hour. I then took off with an estimated leaner mixture but no carb heat. Part of my thought process was that now the engine was heat soaked, everything under the cowl was warm. Eagle has a 9000' runway and my direction of flight was runway heading, it takes a pretty good climb to go straight out and very few planes do it. Tower asked me direction of flight and I said runway heading, moments later just over town at probably 600 to700 feet, it started to run crappy and lose power again. I was already leaned some and pulled carb heat and leaned more while making a left turn to come back. The radio was busy so I had to wait to call tower and tell them I needed to come back, I was given right traffic so reversed my turn and made a right downwind. By the time I got mid field, the engine was running fine, I let tower know that I would make a full pattern but only a low pass and continue as originally planned.

Having more carb heat available, and quickly would make me feel a little better on some days. Often I cruise at 17 or 18" and 2300 rpm, when its single digits to teens it takes nearly full carb heat to get a carb temp reading over 32.

StillLearning wrote:bendix injection is cheap, the only hard part is that no one will approve it anymore.

hotrod180 wrote:

StillLearning wrote:bendix injection is cheap, the only hard part is that no one will approve it anymore.

My friend had a DER that did the approval.
I think he told me that the paperwork cost like a grand-- plus the parts themselves.
Plus the hassle of it all.

StillLearning wrote:

hotrod180 wrote:

StillLearning wrote:bendix injection is cheap, the only hard part is that no one will approve it anymore.

My friend had a DER that did the approval.
I think he told me that the paperwork cost like a grand-- plus the parts themselves.
Plus the hassle of it all.

If you have someone who has and can CURRENTLY get an approval, I'd love to speak with them and make it happen. All the people I have talked to know about having done it in the past, but that NO ONE can get it approved in the last year or two.

I think I have a thread on it somewhere.

StillLearning wrote:bendix injection is cheap, the only hard part is that no one will approve it anymore.

C180_guy wrote:

StillLearning wrote:bendix injection is cheap, the only hard part is that no one will approve it anymore.

Really? There are a bunch flying around using the STC. We had a whole thread on it over on the Supercub forum with the paperwork attached.

hotrod180 wrote:I'm on that forum as well, but I don't remember that.
Can you post a link to the discussion?