Does any one have familiarity with both of these? Is there any perceptible benefit in steering with the later style? Was this change made by Cessna to improve handling or reduce wear/force characteristics?
I'm elbow deep in my tail cone at the moment and highly considering removing the various cables, pulleys and hardware that make up the later steering components. It seems overly complicated, heavy, and impossible to maintain without pulling the tail feathers. I already have to remove some of it to complete my current work.
The early 170B's (along with a lot of other aircraft) all seem to do just fine with chain and spring from the rudder bellcrank to the tailwheel steering arm. I seem to have the tailwheel steering tabs installed on the bellcrank (I assume from the factory).
Final question: Since Cessna made these 170's both ways, is this a minor modification, or at the very least just a simple 337 noting change to early style?
Thanks,
Early vs Late Tailwheel Steering 170B
Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:03 am
- Verticaltransit offline
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Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:54 am
Re: Early vs Late Tailwheel Steering 170B
The change to the latter steering was done for a reason, much better steering control. Not for a perceived benefit. No, you can't just change to the early style as a minor modification, find someone that know how to work on the plane to help you it is really not that complicated of a system
DENNY
DENNY
DENNY
Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:33 am
Re: Early vs Late Tailwheel Steering 170B
DENNY wrote:The change to the latter steering was done for a reason, much better steering control. Not for a perceived benefit. No, you can't just change to the early style as a minor modification, find someone that know how to work on the plane to help you it is really not that complicated of a system
DENNY
Ha..If the later steering was intended to provide much better control, then I think they failed pretty miserably. Most of the consensus of 170 drivers I've ever known would agree that tailwheel steering sucks in either system. However, that's also why I'm probing the forum outside my immediate circle. Do you have time in both? You believe that the later style has much better steering? -Honestly would like to hear more on your personal experience with this.
What do you mean by find someone who knows how to work on a plane? You mean like me, who has many hundreds (thousands?) of hours working this plane, or my IA, or multiple A&P's that review, consultant or complete work on the plane? Or do you mean the crowd sourcing opportunities of this forum? Or somebody else?
My point was that it was complicated relative to the early style, not that I'm confused on how to work on it.
Thanks,
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Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:26 am
Re: Early vs Late Tailwheel Steering 170B
Sounds like you already know the answer to me.
The only time I’ve had problems with 170 tail wheel steering, or any other airplane with a Scott tail wheel, is when the tailwheel needs work. Some are marginally better than others, but they all work pretty well when maintained properly.
The only time I’ve had problems with 170 tail wheel steering, or any other airplane with a Scott tail wheel, is when the tailwheel needs work. Some are marginally better than others, but they all work pretty well when maintained properly.
Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:54 am
Re: Early vs Late Tailwheel Steering 170B
AEROPOD wrote:Sounds like you already know the answer to me.
The only time I’ve had problems with 170 tail wheel steering, or any other airplane with a Scott tail wheel, is when the tailwheel needs work. Some are marginally better than others, but they all work pretty well when maintained properly.
Curious if you have early or late steering style on your 170, and what model of 170 it is. -Thanks!
Definitely don't have all the answers..Just tend to bristle at categorical responses that go anywhere near "Just go talk to a mechanic". Why even have a mechanical section on forums then? Should owners not be highly educated on their aircraft? Does an open forum discussion that taps a huge array of skill sets and experience have no value? I absolutely do not subscribe to the idea that Cessna did everything perfect and should never be questioned.
Sigh..getting in the weeds on the wrong topic..I'm not good at forums..
- Verticaltransit offline
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Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:38 pm
Re: Early vs Late Tailwheel Steering 170B
Verticaltransit wrote:What do you mean by find someone who knows how to work on a plane? You mean like me, who has many hundreds (thousands?) of hours working this plane, or my IA, or multiple A&P's that review, consultant or complete work on the plane?
Thanks for clarifying that you have many thousands of hours working on your plane.
I've not met "most of the 170 drivers that you have ever known," (I could be wrong) but what your saying has not been my experience.
Also looks like you've been told pretty much what most of us are going to say:
1) If properly maintained, later model 170B steering is much better than early. Early 180 steering is better than the 170, and later model 180/185 is better than the early 180. There is a reason Cessna kept changing the design, and thats improvements.
2) The 170B is a certified aircraft, so regardless of what the facebook experts say, you are not allowed to change the steering unless you get a field approval or have an STC approved. Might not be the answer folks want to hear, but its pretty black and white.
- Bigrenna offline
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Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:10 pm
Re: Early vs Late Tailwheel Steering 170B
The steering on my early model 1952 170B works just fine. I maintain it as per Cessna instructions and best practices. I don't know of anyone else having any significant issues.
Oh and I stay at a Holiday Inn not to long ago.
Oh and I stay at a Holiday Inn not to long ago.
Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:03 pm
Re: Early vs Late Tailwheel Steering 170B
Bigrenna wrote:Verticaltransit wrote:What do you mean by find someone who knows how to work on a plane? You mean like me, who has many hundreds (thousands?) of hours working this plane, or my IA, or multiple A&P's that review, consultant or complete work on the plane?
Thanks for clarifying that you have many thousands of hours working on your plane.
2) The 170B is a certified aircraft, so regardless of what the facebook experts say, you are not allowed to change the steering unless you get a field approval or have an STC approved. Might not be the answer folks want to hear, but its pretty black and white.
Was that suppose to be a jab? Sheesh. How about cool, someone who likes working on planes...It seems like I've been on the defense since the first reply..The goal here really was to tap into the community knowledge base in a positive way. Didn't someone just post about trying to boost the forum contributions and discussions?
Back to (part) of the original question:
My understanding is that both early and late steering types are represented on the same aircraft make and model (C170b) under the same type certificate. Cessna made the change starting with serial number 26505 which means that if my airplane had come off the line a few days earlier, then it might have had the earlier steering and still been a 170b on the same TC. The fact that it still has the attach points own the rudder bellcrank means it was still equipped for early steering by Cessna.
So for continued clarity (not to argue or advocate for an outcome), you're saying that a field approval at a minimum if not an STC is required to make changes between parts that Cessna had two different configurations for on the same make/model aircraft?
Another example off the top of my head would be the doors that were produced with inoperable windows in later 170b's . Would you need a field approval or STC to install a door with an operable window harvested from an earlier airframe? Would this be the unanimous, black and white interpretation by the FAA and any self respecting A&P/IA? If so, Is the aircraft serial number the deciding point that you cannot cross?
What about nose bowls..These had a couple different configurations. Can't swap between them?
Bench seats?
Lots of examples in this line of thought.
What about the L19 tailwheel spring (which I do not have)? That seems like an even bigger step outside of the interpretation, yet don't most IA's sign this off without a field approval (I think)?
Thanks
- Verticaltransit offline
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Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:22 pm
Re: Early vs Late Tailwheel Steering 170B
These guys are taking you to task because you're acting like a douche. It took minutes of their lives to provide some free advice, so instead of the defensive posture just take it for whatever value is there.
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Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:55 pm
Re: Early vs Late Tailwheel Steering 170B
Verticaltransit wrote:AEROPOD wrote:Sounds like you already know the answer to me.
The only time I’ve had problems with 170 tail wheel steering, or any other airplane with a Scott tail wheel, is when the tailwheel needs work. Some are marginally better than others, but they all work pretty well when maintained properly.
Curious if you have early or late steering style on your 170, and what model of 170 it is. -Thanks!
I had a 54 B model, so the steering chains attached directly to the rudder horn. It worked great. I have plenty of time in early 180s. steering works well. I have even more time with the last version of the Cessna tailwheel steering. It works pretty good too.
Verticaltransit wrote:
My understanding is that both early and late steering types are represented on the same aircraft make and model (C170b) under the same type certificate. Cessna made the change starting with serial number 26505 which means that if my airplane had come off the line a few days earlier, then it might have had the earlier steering and still been a 170b on the same TC. The fact that it still has the attach points own the rudder bellcrank means it was still equipped for early steering by Cessna.
Cessna also made the 172 with a bunch of different engines, doesn't mean you can swap them willy nilly. The key part that you're ignoring in the parts manual is "applicability" which is tied to serial number, configuration, options, etc.
Verticaltransit wrote:Another example off the top of my head would be the doors that were produced with inoperable windows in later 170b's . Would you need a field approval or STC to install a door with an operable window harvested from an earlier airframe? Would this be the unanimous, black and white interpretation by the FAA and any self respecting A&P/IA? If so, Is the aircraft serial number the deciding point that you cannot cross?
What about nose bowls..These had a couple different configurations. Can't swap between them?
Bench seats?
Lots of examples in this line of thought.
What about the L19 tailwheel spring (which I do not have)? That seems like an even bigger step outside of the interpretation, yet don't most IA's sign this off without a field approval (I think)?
Thanks
Arguing that a change to a flight control system is analagous to a change in interior is a bit of a stretch. At the end of the day, it really comes down to the A&P/IA autographing the book.
I'm okay with that window swap and I'd probably sign that off at a minor alteration.
Nose bowls? As I recall, and bear in mind I was deep in 170s 9 years ago so I'm probably wrong, that the change in nose bowls was alongside a change to a pressure cowl, which would make this change to engine cooling, which would probably make it a major alteration.
Bench seat, that depends. Most of the bench seats I'm aware of fasten to the same location, so swap away and call it minor. If you decide to put in a 76+ skywagon seat, that's a major because you have to add bulkheads. I'd put an early bench in my late model wagon though and not bat an eye.
L-19 spring? Sounds as good or better, install it at move on.
The reality is you can do ANY of these things and just go fly. It only matters when you crash in to a busload of nuns on their way to raise money for premature puppies, and even then, it probably won't be noticed by the average FAA, NTSB, or insurance investigator. You can also do a lot LEGALLY if you have a good A&P/IA who knows the rules and is willing to stand behind a good decision.
Which leads to my final thought, just because you can, doesn't mean you should. This sounds like you are looking for an answer to a question that no one is asking. In other words, are you trying to fix a little problem (poor tailwheel steering function), with a big solution (revising the whole steering system), when the real answer is pretty simple (fix the tailwheel).
on the other hand...what the hell do I know? You may be on to a million dollar idea. Change it and let us know how it works.
Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:42 pm
Re: Early vs Late Tailwheel Steering 170B
Going back to the start, what exactly is the end goal? Are you trying to simplify the steering system, or trying to make it steer better?
Take care, Rob
Take care, Rob
Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:30 am
Re: Early vs Late Tailwheel Steering 170B
My '52 has the original tail wheel steering setup and steers great. I typically taxi out of echo parking to the strip at Lake Hood without needing to touch the brakes. Later tail wheel steering might be better as others say but I wouldn't spend a dime to upgrade.
Beeman
Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:29 am
Re: Early vs Late Tailwheel Steering 170B
Last year I modified a early model Cessna 180 to the bell crank style late model tail wheel steering via field approval. Customer got the approval through a DER.
There are several reasons for the late model steering. The main one being better geometry of the cable routing to the tail wheel steering arms. The early style is at a very sharp angle and puts strain on both the rudder horn and tail wheel arm that can cause premature wear on those components. The newer system alleviates that problem and IMO is a much smoother and better responding system. The 180's also benefit with the AeroPod inspection panels for maintenance and inspection of the system.
I personally know of at least two other aircraft that were modified to the later steering systems. One of them a 170B and the other a different early 180. I would not go backwards and install the early setup.
Brian
There are several reasons for the late model steering. The main one being better geometry of the cable routing to the tail wheel steering arms. The early style is at a very sharp angle and puts strain on both the rudder horn and tail wheel arm that can cause premature wear on those components. The newer system alleviates that problem and IMO is a much smoother and better responding system. The 180's also benefit with the AeroPod inspection panels for maintenance and inspection of the system.
I personally know of at least two other aircraft that were modified to the later steering systems. One of them a 170B and the other a different early 180. I would not go backwards and install the early setup.
Brian
- Brian-StevesAircraft offline
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Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:40 pm
Re: Early vs Late Tailwheel Steering 170B
My ‘53 180 doesn’t steer nearly as well as a few later model ones I’ve taxied. But, it’s never been anything I considered spending money to fix. I’ve got better things to spend my money on.
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Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:49 pm
Re: Early vs Late Tailwheel Steering 170B
Brian-StevesAircraft wrote:The 180's also benefit with the AeroPod inspection panels for maintenance and inspection of the system.
Brian
I don't know...those guys sound shady.
Thanks for the plug! Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:50 am
Re: Early vs Late Tailwheel Steering 170B
My 1955 C170B had the complex cable/pulley arrangement in the tailcone. When we re-built it completely with all new everythiing (cables, pulley, nuts, bolts..) we got in touch with a very old Cessna Engineer who went through the drawings and history with us on the phone.
Bottom line was the complex method was tried for a few s/n to improve steering, but abandoned after only a few were produced that way.
The 1955 C170B is approved under CAR part 3. All we had to do was reference the Cessna drawings as 'FAA approved data' and made the 337 to record the fact we installed tail-wheel steering to match Cessna drawings.
Mine steers great with both the standard and the Baby Bush Wheel in place. Just set the cables with a bit if slack and use the proper springs.
Can't do this with later planes approved under Part 23, but old planes were grandfathered forever....and there was no such thing back then as PMA either! If you can find a reference to your modification in AC43-13, that is considered 'FAA Approved Data'.
Cheers!
Bottom line was the complex method was tried for a few s/n to improve steering, but abandoned after only a few were produced that way.
The 1955 C170B is approved under CAR part 3. All we had to do was reference the Cessna drawings as 'FAA approved data' and made the 337 to record the fact we installed tail-wheel steering to match Cessna drawings.
Mine steers great with both the standard and the Baby Bush Wheel in place. Just set the cables with a bit if slack and use the proper springs.
Can't do this with later planes approved under Part 23, but old planes were grandfathered forever....and there was no such thing back then as PMA either! If you can find a reference to your modification in AC43-13, that is considered 'FAA Approved Data'.
Cheers!
Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:17 am
Re: Early vs Late Tailwheel Steering 170B
My 1948 C170, 1964 C150 taildragger, and current 1953 C180 all have the early type t/w steering.
By all reports, the later inside-the-tailcone-bellcrank system steers much better.
I sure wouldn't go to all the trouble to change it to the earlier system.
But I would get a set of Aeropod's access covers so the bellcranks can be more easily inspected & serviced.
https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/new- ... opod-20902
By all reports, the later inside-the-tailcone-bellcrank system steers much better.
I sure wouldn't go to all the trouble to change it to the earlier system.
But I would get a set of Aeropod's access covers so the bellcranks can be more easily inspected & serviced.
https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/new- ... opod-20902
Cessna Skywagon -- accept no substitute!
Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:20 am
Re: Early vs Late Tailwheel Steering 170B
hotrod180 wrote:My 1948 C170, 1964 C150 taildragger, and current 1953 C180 all have the early type t/w steering.
By all reports, the later inside-the-tailcone-bellcrank system steers much better.
I sure wouldn't go to all the trouble to change it to the earlier system.
But I would think about getting a field approval to install set of Aeropod's access covers,
so the bellcranks can be more easily inspected & serviced.
Tony of Aeropod might be able to help with that.
https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/new- ... opod-20902
Cessna Skywagon -- accept no substitute!
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