I'm not sure if this is possible. I'm a low time pilot and wanted to plan a back country tour. I don't yet have a mountain rating and didn't know if there was a way to make it from the Midwest to the Pacific Northwest...or anywhere along the west coast really. All in all, it seems sort of challenging/unsafe without a mountain rating.

Thoughts on route planning?

Or where to get a good mountain instruction/rating that's easily accessible from major airports?

Thanks!

There is no "mountain rating" but you can get training. But if you want to fly to the Pacific NW without worrying too much about mountains, just follow I-90. And you can stop in Missoula along the way to drink some Moose Drool

moose_drool wrote:Or where to get a good mountain instruction/rating that's easily accessible from major airports?

I think you are right to seek specialty training. This flatlander from Chicago certainly benefited from it before my first mountain trip. Of course, mountain flying is an expensive addiction once it takes hold...

I went through a school in Boulder. You can get to Denver from pretty much anyplace, so maybe that will work for you. If you are interested I'll dig up their name and a person to contact.

They also have a redbird, so when we were weathered out one of the days I flew into all the airports I had in my trip plan in the sim. Particularly for West Yellowstone this turned out to be quite useful as the landmarks there aren't super pronounced. A few weeks later when I flew it in a 172 it was like going through familiar terrain and we found the airport without any problems.

Always keep in mind where the wind is from and that it provides lift on the close upwind side of ridges and caused downdrafts on the downwind side of ridges. Always keep in mind which way is downhill. With low powered aircraft, we sometimes have to turn back down the valley. Fly the downwind side of the valley where the wind is going up over the downwind ridge close enough that you have room to turn down into the valley. Keep in mind that this turn will take you into the downdraft on the downwind side of the upwind ridge. Not a problem if you use gravity thrust to fly down the valley to lower terrain.

Lean to find maximum rpm before takeoff. Use ground effect as much as possible on higher elevation airports. Take off toward lower terrain, when possible. Don't try to climb as steeply as you might in lower terrain. When at full throttle and what you think is the best pitch attitude for climb: If you are not climbing or even descending, push the stick forward a bit. Vx becomes Vy at about 7,000' density altitude. Vx becomes no longer sustainable.

Fly slow in updrafts from thermals and fast in downdrafts rather than attempting to hold altitude. Attempting to hold a specific altitude will cause just the opposite in strong thermals. You will end up flying slow in downdrafts and fast in updrafts for a net loss in ground speed and altitude.

Moose,
Training is not required but is never a bad thing. Density altitude is a huge statistical factor in GA crashes in the western states. Don't take it lightly.
However Flying at 10 or 12K feet is the same in Ohio as it is in Colorado or Idaho. It's just the proximity of the terrain (and it's effects on the air) that's different. I would suggest going and flying at those altitudes, feel the plane out. Check out very slow turns, flaps, go arounds, climb rates, engine settings, how your head feels at those altitudes and everything else you can think of. Getting really comfortable with your aircraft, at those altitudes, with a whole lot of cushion between you and God will definitely help when that granite is close.
Most importantly, back country flying is the best flying there is! Have fun!

Also be careful on take off and landing. You're visual cues will be slightly off for rotation speed and approach speed on landing. Remember that your air speed indicator will automatically correct for density altitude but your eyes don't.

Though your airspeed indicator will indicate for example 65kts over the fence on landing at sea level or at Leadville at 10,000 feet, at leadville your true airspeed will be a bit faster. Until you get comfy with it try and fly the numbers precisely.

Brad

The I90 route is really tame...and like Skyleep said, there are some neat places like Missoula to visit. Glacier Natl Park is just a short diversion to the north. The airports are low, the mountains are a great view, and there arent any real high passes to go through. The route would make a great intro to mtn flying if thats what you are looking for. Mountain weather is probably equal to DA concerns if you stick to the I90 corridor. If you are comfortable with DA, then there are a lot of strips to explore as well, like Elk City for breakfast or ribs, or West Fork Lodge with its long runway, lodging, and great hospitality right on the field. Or even go right in to Chamberlain Basin or other strips where DA is your primary concern rather than terrain.

Training seems to save a lot of nerves, airplanes, and seat upholstery though. Missoula and Hamilton or many of the other airports near the mtns offer training.

flyingzebra wrote:Moose,
Training is not required but is never a bad thing. Density altitude is a huge statistical factor in GA crashes in the western states. Don't take it lightly.

Well said. I think the things that end up biting people in the mountains are the things of which they were apparently ignorant. Knowing is definitely more than half the battle in the mountains. Seek instruction for sure, but also read up on the topic of mountain flying as much as you can.

Zzz wrote:

flyingzebra wrote:Seek instruction for sure, but also read up on the topic of mountain flying as much as you can.

Sparky Imeson's books are great reading for this. So is the lesson in his death. He was, for unknown reasons, violating one of his own rules "don't fly low in the mountains" and it cost him his life.

Don't learn by reading these posts....
I'm serious. Get hands on instruction. Arrange ahead of time with a good CFI on the East side of the mountains. Stop in there and log some local time with him/her. It will be fun, maybe save your life... and just be an all around good thing to do.

I never got any formal mountain training, just talked to guys who have been there done that. Went to Johnson Creek after I had my Maule 8 months. I had about 75 hours in the Maule and 175 total hours.

We all learn different and you should know what works for you. If in doubt, play it safe.

Cheers...Rob

Pick your route and its rather benign. A mountain checkout is not required but cannot hurt. Though I have to say I really don't the the mountain checkouts _truly_ involve mountain flying. But it will train you for safe practices so you can learn where the limits are and when/how to go about pushing them.

There are 2 things which I think tend to "bite" flatlanders when they come to the mountain West, density altitude and proximity to the rocks.

Density altitude is something that needs to be experienced. It's one thing to theoretically learn that the airplane's performance will be compromised; it's another thing altogether to take that spritely airplane that can climb at 750 fpm or more at sea level and be stuck with 150 fpm or less at 11,000' DA. The Rockies are littered with aluminum from pilots who tried and failed to cross over passes, apparently thinking that the service ceilings on their airplanes meant actual altitude rather than density altitude. "Gosh, I can go over that pass--it's only 11,000', and my airplane has a service ceiling of 13,100'." Fact: It's really hard to cross an 11,000' pass on a nice cool 60F day in an airplane with a 13,100' service ceiling, because in those conditions, DA at that pass is around 13,500'.

Flying in canyons and narrow valleys is very disconcerting to pilots who haven't any experience with flying near the rocks. Suddenly the wings become 250' wide, and it's like they're going to scrape the rocks on both sides. So they fly down the middle, making it more difficult for anyone coming the other way--mid-airs do happen that way, especially if both pilots think they have 250' wingspans.

So there's lots of benefits, if not taking training, at least going along with an experienced mountain flyer the first couple of times.

Here is a flight that is a good example. One of my buddies is a low time private pilot. All of his training and cross country flights were out of the Greeley area, flying into Kansas or Nebraska, all pretty flat country, but at least with higher DAs, since Greeley is at 4700' and most Front Range airports are in the 5000' elevation or so. We've flown quite a bit together, including a flight to OSH one year. So a couple of years ago, we were chatting about the changing of the Fall colors, and we decided to fly over to Marble so he could take pictures along the way--and he had never flown west of Fort Collins.

Early in the morning, we left GXY and pretty easily climbed up to about 13,000', carrying only my Golden and light jackets, and my survival kit which weighs just under 40#. There are some wide passes that we could easily top at that altitude, although still as we flew over them, he commented about how close the rocks seemed to be. After crossing the Divide, our route is over some fairly benign areas which are pretty wide, but after descending over Eagle and over Carbondale, we were headed into the canyon, and he commented several times, "Aren't we awfully close to the sides?" Then we turned into the Crystal River canyon, and Marble was straight ahead. I pointed to it and said, "That's where we're landing", and he exclaimed, "You have to be kidding!"

So we flew the full pattern (upwind, crosswind, downwind, base, and final) and landed--and he'd never landed between trees before, never landed on a gravel/grass strip, never landed on what is essentially a one-way strip (although a rather benign one compared to many). It was a totally new experience for him.

We spent some time there, visiting with others who had flown in, and then we left, around 12:30 or so. Even with my "hotrod" 180hp, CS propped, P172D, our climb rate wasn't more than 150-200 fpm as we climbed out and headed north. We flew over to Kremmling and landed there, borrowed a car, and went to a restaurant for lunch. When we left Kremmling around 2:30 or so, it was 85F on the ground, making the 7411' elevation over 10,600'. We flew northeast from Kremmling, then eastward over toward Granby, and then north toward Milner Pass, to cross over the Divide.

Now at this point, we'd lost about 150# worth of weight in the gas we'd burned, so the airplane was pretty light. Trail Ridge Road is over 12,100' at its highest, and the very best we could do at that point was level to 12,000', in an airplane that similarly loaded on a cold day can easily climb to 15,000'. So as we flew toward it, my buddy expressed concern because he's very familiar with the area, just not from the air, but I told him that Milner itself was around 10,800', and we'd be flying lower than Trail Ridge Road.

So we flew through the pass and to the south of Trail Ridge Road, with the vehicles higher than we were, and then down over Estes Park and then back to Greeley.

So you don't need specific mountain training, and as you've been told, there is no such thing as a mountain rating, but you really should get some experience with an experienced mountain flyer before striking out on your own. It's well worth it, because there is a lot to learn that you won't learn by reading about it.

Cary

All good advice, but I think the OP was also asking if there was a safe way to get to the Pacific NW and take instruction once there, or should he fly commercial and take some instruction then come back later.

Just follow I-90 and stop in at Missoula and then Spokane Felts Field (lots of GA activity there). Then a short hop to McCall to get some instruction. I think it would be a fun and safe adventure for even a flatlander with no mountain experience.

No high passes, no need to fly commercial. Still some DA to pay attention to, but Missoula is only 3500 feet and Spokane is 2000 feet, and passes in between are low and easy--unless there are thunderstorms and if so, just wait and go later. And yes, if no experience in mountains then don't just go fly into canyons in the Idaho backcountry, get some instruction first. But no reason not to fly your own airplane there to get the instruction, and have the instruction be in your own plane as well (assuming it's capable).

Try taking off from sea level with half throttle. Thats about 10-12K DA

I took off from Leadville Colorado with 13K DA full gross Maule M7 235HP I had close to 1300-1500 TO roll. 100-150 FPM climb The plane has a service ceiling of 20K The 1st time you do that you will think something is broken, especially if like me you fly out of a sea level airport.

I lived in Montana on the 1-90 route for many years, it is also where I learned to fly over 20 years ago. It is one of the easier mountain routes. However since you are a new pilot without mountain flying experience, I would not recommend it for you. Should you attempt it any way, don't fly it unless the weather is perfect with clear skys, and little wind, AND you fly it early in the morning and plan to be through flying by 11am.

Flying I-90 takes you over Livingston Montana which is one of the worst places for regular severe turbulence in the western US. Even if the forecast is for light winds, afternoon winds can come up suddenly along the entire route creating significant turbulence with strong up and downdrafts. If there are low ceilings or showers, forget it. You don't want to be there.

Your trip will be much more comfortable and enjoyable if you receive mountain instruction first AND get actual experience mountain flying as was stated by Cary above; that is sound advice you can live by.

Just this week, myself and a flight instructor, and osoloco in Salt Lake City and a friend of his, helped a pilot who got into trouble in Northern Nevada ferrying a C-182 from California to the east coast. He encountered winds and severe turbulence, set down, called the local sheriff and asked if he knew any pilots who could fly with him the rest of the way through the Rockies. He had many hours of recent flying experience, but none in the mountains, he realized he was in for more than he could handle and had the good judgement to know he shouldn't proceed on his own.

In the end it is your choice. Gaining the proper training and experience before you need it is a lot better situation to be in than the other way around. Your flying experiences will be safer, a lot less stressful, and more enjoyable. Good luck on your journey.

Mike

Blackrock, good point on Livingston area wind. I grew up near Missoula, went to school in Butte and Bozeman, and then lived in Spokane for over 20 years. Most of my flying west of the Continental Divide though.

I still think if you're not under time pressure and have the good sense to sit out thunderstorms and wind, it's not that big a deal. I look at those radar charts in the Midwest with storms 4 states wide and that looks scarier to me than the Northwest.

I90 between Missoula and Livingston can certainly have its days, but those days are fairly predictable and the route is generally benign on the clear, moderate wind mornings that make up the majority of Montana summers. I spent years flying the corridor too, and have met a lot of people who have made the trip from the East with no mountain flying experience at all who were humble when dealing with the weather, knew their limits, and considered it one of the highlights of their flying experience. Everyone is different. Cary's narrative is familiar, but if you fly in the morning along the corridor, you really never have to get over 8.5k' or so except to cut corners. Things do tend to get mighty punchy around 11 or noon on a hot, clear day, especially with a dry line moving through. But you can be sitting at Bitterroot Brewery in Hamilton after a morning flight by the time noon rolls aroound for sure.

Mccall is nice to find instruction I hear, but so are a lot of other places...getting into the strips for reals is a lot more motivating than reading about it, and a lot better than visiting the area without at least seeing it properly. There are a lot of strips that dont have challenging terrain, and DA remains the primary concern. You can bring a mtn CFI with you to tour a few of these, and you may be grateful for the familiarization (and some fishing recommendations if you find the right one).

Have fun.

In 2005 I flew out of Ma. in my Mx7-180 Maule to McCall an took the Mt. and Cayon course.I followed I 90 just about all the way. Having never been in high density country it was a quick learning curve to lean even before start up and to pay strict attention to V speeds. It's a great privilege to be able to fly in Idaho's back country strips safely and for sure a lot of fun.Since then I go out every year for two weeks.Flying to the west just takes some common sense and doing the things you have been taught.

Zzz wrote:Knowing is definitely more than half the battle in the mountains.

I love that quote.

If knowing is half the battle*, horsepower must be the other half. (Without getting too serious/technical.)
*In the mountains.