So there I was getting ready to depart SPB, I hear someone call, "XXX turning base". I take a look down final, make a quick radio call, "Cessna bla bla bla departing RW15" then look again to make sure it's clear on final before proceeding onto the runway.

All of a sudden as I'm 1/4 way and still perpendicular to the centerline, I hear, "Excuuuuuse me, I'm on short final", and I see the person who made the earlier call finishing a very short final turn from base.

It was short enough that I doubted being able to depart safely so I gunned it across the runway to the opposite taxiway and gave her the runway.

I was surprised by how quickly she went from base to final and how close she was. With a high wing airplane, I had very little visibility of the base leg.

The question is, who is wrong here, if anyone, and what would have been the best procedure for either of us? As the pilot turning short base to short final, should she have been better off and more obligated to announce a go around? I did what I felt was safest but would have been stuck if the taxiway on the other side wasn't clear. I could have, perhaps, stayed put and told her to go around. Departing out in front of her just seemed too risky.

-Craig

I would say she had the right of way. You should act as if she did regardless, because that is what an engine failure landing will look like, and that should be part of what you are scanning for before taking the runway for departure.

The landing traffic has the right of way. Sounds like you didn't get a visual on her when she was on base?

I was taught to, and have always had the habit of, making a full 360 turn before taking the active, scanning all directions of the pattern. Some folks fly NORDO, helicopters and ultralights might fly the opposite pattern, etc. It's well worth the time it takes.

Troy Hamon wrote:I would say she had the right of way. You should act as if she did regardless, because that is what an engine failure landing will look like, and that should be part of what you are scanning for before taking the runway for departure.

I agree with Troy. I think you made a mistake here. But everyone makes them. The important thing now is that no-one got hurt and it was a good learning point!

Personally, I stay off the active if someone is on base for this reason. It's hard to get a visual on them if the pattern is to your back, and because they might be flying a short pattern.

Fly an airplane like you drive a car. Always expect the unexpected and never believe anything anyone says over the radio without confirming yourself.

I fly hyper-tight and small patterns when in the SQ2 but always land on turf so am rarely in anyone's way. If I see someone holding short and I haven't made radio contact with them I keep an eye on them. I also don't expect others to land against the wind, some are too stupid to figure out which way the wind is blowing, others (like myself) might intentionally land with the wind for practice. And don't expect people to do right traffic just because that's the published pattern for that runway. Again, always expect the unexpected.

One of my first lessons was to ALWAYS make a 360 turn into the traffic pattern before departure.
I even do it a towered airports. When they say "depart immediately, "I reply "Unable."

Reason being that some years ago, at Livermore, Ca, I was taxing out for take off when a C-140
was told to, "Taxi in position and hold." He was struck by a plane on short final. Result being that the C-140 was cited and declared to be the one at fault. The tower might have been reprimanded, i do not recall.

Either way:

It is not a matter of who is RIGHT.
It is a matter of WHO IS LEFT OVER.

360s to ya.

Trim

People will not see traffic 100% of the time. Anyone who believes they can probably has never tried flying with an ADS-b unit or a sharp set of eyes in the other seat. Nonetheless, the idea is to conduct the flight so that these sort of things are just educational, motivational, or forgettable just as they are inevitable. The traffic pattern is where a lot of things can raise blood pressures, and thankfully, it is easier to keep track of.

Base leg means anything from a full minute of more to a dozen seconds away from the threshold. The other pilot had right of way, had done her job in being communicative, and fault in these matters is educational and motivational, not a personal attack.

On the other hand, if it had sounded more like this....

I agree with above... (sorry.) Landing traffic has ROW. I also was taught to do a quick 360. I do this before I head out onto the RW. Having a tail dragger makes it super simple and easy even in a narrow taxi way.

Like Phil, I also fly a super tight pattern with base leg just long enough to level the wings to take a peek. Gotta look before you take the RWY for sure...

I can see why you rolled. Regular pilots flying a standard circuit, can drag they're asses going from ,turning base to becoming prominently visible on final, enough time for 3 expeditious pilots to depart. Pilots flying smaller circuits than the protocol should include "short" in all communications. Such as in this case "Cessna bla bla bla turning base for short final on rwy XX.
In this case, being female, will mean that she's always right, so there is no point questioning that.

I did that once. I now try to do my runup on the taxiway facing oncoming traffic. I think if I'd been on final and saw someone roll in front of me, I'd sidestep first and be condescending from a safe distance later. A radio malfunction that starts an air race, one departing from the threshold and one on short final, puts 2 planes together fast. Nobody pulls in front of an airplane on final on purpose.

Self preservation has slow airplane pilots keeping their tail exposed the shortest time possible. Close in patterns, limited time on final, angling across the runway to stay off the center line extended on final, and angling away from the center line extended on takeoff are good ways to limit exposure. Every pilot needs to see and avoid. No pilot should expect to be seen or avoided. The faster an airplane is closing on your tail, the less likely he is to see you.

There is no reason not to make a 360 in a tail wheel airplane or helicopter before getting into a position where your are likely to be hit. Nose wheel airplanes can be positioned to at least see all of base and final.

There are Federal Air Regulations and interpretations of FARs and thoughts about what FARs are and what they mean. Expecting, fussing, telling via radio, etc., what the other guy should do does not contribute to your safety. Seeing and avoiding contribute to your safety, both physically and legally.

I flew a C-172 all over the midwest and into New Mexico and Colorado on pipelines. I crossed over or very near Chicago Midway, Indionappolis, Cincinnatti, Jackson, Memphis, Lambert, Ft. Worth Mecham, DFW, Abiline, Amarillo, Kirtland Sunport, Farmington, La Plata, MCI and KC Downtown, and Centenial. Tower guys did an excellent job working me at 200' and uncontrolled airports were not busy. By seeing and avoiding (giving way) I had over ten thousand hours with no real conflicts.

No arguments here.

Having a nose wheel does make the 360 turn not practical but I'll have to work on getting a better view. High wing also doesn't help. I chalk some of this up to getting complacent and not looking out for the unexpected. Lots of trainers there and most other people are on final well visible from a distance and someone calling a base turn, typically, I could practically go re-fuel by the time they turn final. My mistake and one I hope to not repeat. Embarrassing, for sure, but I'd rather bring it up and have it open for discussion so that someone else might not do the same thing.

No report of being short from the other pilot but, that's not really an excuse on my part as some people don't even have radios. I also hadn't heard anyone call a base turn then call a final turn that quickly. It definitely caught me by surprise.

While I was able to get out of the way, it still bothers me that "what if" scenario that I wouldn't have had an escape route.

GroundLooper wrote:No arguments here.

Having a nose wheel does make the 360 turn not practical but I'll have to work on getting a better view. High wing also doesn't help. I chalk some of this up to getting complacent and not looking out for the unexpected. Lots of trainers there and most other people are on final well visible from a distance and someone calling a base turn, typically, I could practically go re-fuel by the time they turn final. My mistake and one I hope to not repeat. Embarrassing, for sure, but I'd rather bring it up and have it open for discussion so that someone else might not do the same thing.

No report of being short from the other pilot but, that's not really an excuse on my part as some people don't even have radios. I also hadn't heard anyone call a base turn then call a final turn that quickly. It definitely caught me by surprise.

While I was able to get out of the way, it still bothers me that "what if" scenario that I wouldn't have had an escape route.

What ifs
She had no radio and you lined up to take off
What if she had no radio and no engine and you lined up to take off
What if there was two radio calls at one time and she was useing a hand held and the other guy was 2 miles out and all you heard was him?
So many scenarios to go the what if, Defensive driving taking off and landing!
Good call to get out of the way!! LivenLearn even if you are correct, way better than Deadright!!

If I have an airplane on base I will get a visual before taking the runway...or anywhere in the pattern if you can. If you don't have them, ask if you have time to depart. I fly no radio sometimes and am always amazed, but usually prepared when someone doesn't bother to look.

CFOT wrote:If I have an airplane on base I will get a visual before taking the runway...or anywhere in the pattern if you can. If you don't have them, ask if you have time to depart.

^ Same here. That is what we were probably all taught to do.

I would certainly think twice about entering an active runway with unseen traffic in the later stages of the circuit, mid-downwind onwards. But...

I've made decisions like yours before, assumptions are a common issue.

Once I departed the grass after landing, and crossed the active for the taxiway. As I turned for the seal, I reported my intentions. I heard a call "____ is turning to final". The pattern had four very slow-landing LSAs in it. I figured I had time, and continued to roll across quickly based on the assumptions 1. they were flying a standard pattern and 2. it was an LSA. I immediately found out it was a Cessna 207 not an S7, on a close pattern. I hadn't heard him enter the pattern with all the traffic. 90kt approach speed (he said). He chose to go around to be on the safe side, I guess we never got within half a mile of each other. I think we wanted to let me know he wasn't happy with my decision.

Now I make a point of doing a 180* turn to stop and look at the final approach, before I ever cross the seal. Radio call or not. It's what I should be doing every time.

I have to agree that she had the right of way. I typed up big long note but it got lost so I will do short version. Doing a 360 is fine of goodyears but can tear up a set of bushwheel in a short time. Just ask if you have time to go. The other issue is when you go do not piss around!!!! Blow your nose, scratch you ass, go over your checklist, set flaps, pull and push whatever you need to prep for takeoff. Do all that crap while on the taxiway. Start takeoff on taxiway and do a Modified J turn onto runway so that once you make centerline tail is up and it is time to rotate.
DENNY

DENNY wrote:...The other issue is when you go do not piss around!!!! Blow your nose, scratch you ass, go over your checklist, set flaps, pull and push whatever you need to prep for takeoff. Do all that crap while on the taxiway. Start takeoff on taxiway and do a Modified J turn onto runway so that once you make centerline tail is up and it is time to rotate.
DENNY

Right on Denny. And as soon as you are off the ground rudder turn yourself off the runway. Gets you out of the way of a fast mover you didn't see, and instead of doing a 270 degree turn to get back to the runway if the fan stops, you only need a 180 degree turn.

No disagreement with any of the above. The lady was in the right - they always are - but as every (old) motorcyclist knows, having the right of way does not oblige one to take it. In a tractor, car, bike or plane, if I see someone waiting to pull out in front of me, I prepare for him to do so.

Not wishing to comment about a particular incident which I didn't see, but if someone pulled onto "my" runway, I'd consider going around, if possible, before making a radio call which others might or might not hear.

On the subject of "see and avoid", quick edit to add link to http://www.slobc.org/safety/documents/road-survival-guide.pdf

Mostly old hat, explaining why we all are literally, to some extent, blind. But I do like the explanation of how any object (screen pillar, frame tube, gizmo on the glareshield, etc) in our field of view effectively obscures some of the "clear" area around it.

My instructor told me if the aircraft has called base you probably don't have enough time to line up and depart.

It's hard to get a good view of base or final in high wing nose wheel aircraft.
Sometimes I will zig-zag across the taxiway just before the hold line to get a better view of the pattern.

Sound like you reacted well and exited the runway fast via the opposite taxiway.

If you ask me if you have time to depart, I won't (and shouldnt) answer. Re-read the AIM, and follow AIM guidelines for reporting on CTAF (who you are, where you are, intentions). If everyone does that, then the PIC, and only the PIC, decides if he/she has time to depart, based on your knowledge and judgment of the inbound plane's position and speed, and how long it takes you to get going.

Please don't ask others to make PIC decisions for you. If I answer, "yeah, sure, you have time to leave", then you turn out to be one of the aforementioned guys who picks his nose and messes with stuff after taking the runway, then whose fault is it that I have to do a side step go around and potentially create a riskier situation?

Pierre