hotrod180 wrote:

mtv wrote:............I was describing left traffic, which, unless otherwise specified for a particular runway,
IS a regulation, not a suggestion. ....

FAR 91.126(b)(1)

Again.... Rely on your assumptions at your own peril. For those still struggling with this simple concept I will paste the very first line of that reg.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.

I challenge anyone including you gold medal CFIIIIII's to tell me when the last time was you travelled somewhere and elected to check and see who operates in that vicinity with authorization or required to deviate.... because we do exist...

Take care, Rob

NineThreeKilo wrote:

mtv wrote:Actually, it's not that difficult to comply with the regulations and recommendations in most cases. Yes, it takes a couple more minutes, but.... We had an instructor who was using right traffic at an airport specified for left traffic (with a student aboard) because "there was nobody around and we'd have had to overfly the airport, then fly a left downwind.

I pointed out that both of them were in the process of building time to get a flying job, so why worry about a couple minutes of flying?

Second, what if the ag pilot who worked in the area who happened to be deaf, was coming in to land....he'd be expecting left traffic.....

After the student left, that CFI got a real chewing out. He was a know it all, whose defense was "Left traffic is not required in the regulations". I suggested he take his CFI certificate to our FSDO and tell them that.

Mostly, it's lazy pilots who don't care about anyone but themselves, and like most dumb shits, they don't realize that what they're doing could kill THEM.....and others.

MTV

We’ll if AG pilot was deaf he shouldn’t have a medical, not even basic med

For the pattern the only regulatory part is the direction, patterns are always left unless depicted right (RP on the sectional) the FAA has gone after people before flying wrong way patterns at uncontrolled fields, now entry and pattern altitude are not regulated

Thinking kerosine burners are going to enter the pattern like a 172 looking to get a burger straight after a WINGS course is fantasy land stuff, they don’t need to and it’s silly, for them it’s just simple communications and planning, pump the brakes a little or add a little more cow bell

Well, I hate to break this to you, but that young man (who flies an AT 502) holds both a Commercial certificate AND a second class medical. His medical has a restriction which says he can’t operate where radio communication is required.

And, BTW, he’s a hell of a pilot.

As to “kerosine burners” being exempt from traffic procedures at uncontrolled fields, you are wrong there as well. Take a look at the regs and the AIM and try to find THAT one.

Now, if they are on an instrument approach, they’re required to follow the approach procedure, but if they’re VFR, they are subject to the same procedures as that J-3 Cub, except their traffic pattern altitudes are higher.

And, yes Rob, I’m pretty sure you know the guy I’m talking about….he flew at least one winter campaign in your neck of the woods in a 402, I think.

MTV

Rob wrote:

NineThreeKilo wrote:Biggest thing I see is people not communicating.

Negative.... EVERY pilot flying (at least every one I know) was learned to prioritize...

Aviate
Navigate
Communicate.

Your opinion is third on the list of how to stay alive. Fly the flipping thing First, and you might grow old. Looking outside is how we fly in the context that pertains to this forum.

That’s the order of priority, but as a professional pilot doing a normal non odd emergency landing should be able to easily do all three, making a few comms as you come in a coordinate with others takes maybe 7% of my mental firepower

Rob wrote:Your opinion, and while technically incorrect, I guess it's your right to have it. I believe I know the Ag pilot Mike had in mind when he wrote that, he is infinitely more professional and experienced than the average Joe, and he is not the only one out there.

If you have a SODA sure, but the black and white says no dice

“ §67.105 Ear, nose, throat, and equilibrium.
Ear, nose, throat, and equilibrium standards for a first-class airman medical certificate are:

(a) The person shall demonstrate acceptable hearing by at least one of the following tests:

(1) Demonstrate an ability to hear an average conversational voice in a quiet room, using both ears, at a distance of 6 feet from the examiner, with the back turned to the examiner.

(2) Demonstrate an acceptable understanding of speech as determined by audiometric speech discrimination testing to a score of at least 70 percent obtained in one ear or in a sound field environment.

(3) Provide acceptable results of pure tone audiometric testing of unaided hearing acuity according to the following table of worst acceptable thresholds, using the calibration standards of the American National Standards Institute, 1969 (11 West 42d Street, New York, NY 10036)”

Rob wrote:
Agreed.... and as I mentioned before there are many others who are legally, not going to enter a pattern in an anticipated fashion, and there are even those who are legal to deviate from an established pattern. Assuming the 'right way' is the only way things are going to happen when you arrive is tantamount to assuming the right of way.

The only time I see a problem with emphasis on good communication is when it takes precedent over good flying. What about the guy who has a radio, but has mis selected the freq, the guy who has a radio that just developed a faulty mic, the guy who has a radio but has an accent that is coon ass, the guy that has a radio, but is just an ass....

Are you willing to die for their short comings? I'm not even willing to be disappointed by them Want to land straight in and ahead of my approach which happens to be in the opposite direction? have at it... I will land 45 seconds after you and won't think twice about it.
Are you going to get pissy because you just woke up to the fact that the wig wag lights heading down the runway in the same direction you have established your down wind on are mine? sorry pal, but I will be turning out and well into my work before you even realize how much we weren't in conflict... maybe a little less coffee is in order for you.

Want to enjoy a long life of flying? Excel at flying the flipping thing..... We can talk all we want while we're doing that...

Take care, Rob

Like I said before it really takes away nothing for me to ALSO communicate as I come in for a normal landing, I got no prob picking out traffic, but I’m also not scared of the PTT button and having a 2 way communication, it’s not difficult for me to fly, look and talk at the same time

Emphasis a aviate... emphasis see and avoid... emphasis survive rather than win legal case. No

NineThreeKilo wrote:That’s the order of priority, but as a professional pilot doing a normal non odd emergency landing should be able to easily do all three, making a few comms as you come in a coordinate with others takes maybe 7% of my mental firepower

As it turns out... the gentlemen who's meeting in the sky precipitated this thread were easily doing all three at the same time as well. There are recordings to prove that... right up until they weren't. I'd bet they would have treated it as though it was an emergency if they had to do it over again. In fact, I'd call that flight an emergency before it even happened

NineThreeKilo wrote:If you have a SODA sure, but the black and white says no dice

Great, so now we add 'check for SODA possessing pilots' before we plan a trip to the airport... This makes so much more sense than not expecting everyone to be on the radio, why didn't I think of that Honestly the only reason I responded to your comment about an 'Ag pilot shouldn't have a medical if he is deaf' was because they can, and do, and they are not the only professional pilots flying deaf... all of which is occurring at uncontrolled airports... you know... the kind in the title of this thread..

NineThreeKilo wrote: Like I said before it really takes away nothing for me to ALSO communicate as I come in for a normal landing, I got no prob picking out traffic, but I’m also not scared of the PTT button and having a 2 way communication, it’s not difficult for me to fly, look and talk at the same time

Agreed, funny spraying sidebar...
When people think of crop dusters, they have an image in their mind of a graceful swooping turn in the magic morning air of a powerhouse that would never need for horsepower.
No one is picturing the kid in the cockpit, chemical running out, chemical that must fit that job. Is it coming out at 2 gal/acre? 1.5, or 2.4? are you running short or running long, because you will need to address that. Now.. like immediately, or you will run short / long. Are you still on your swath? or at least intercepting it? shit... what do you mean you're 5 feet off and moving away? Do you know what defoliation looks like on the green cotton it doesn't hit? Speaking of defoliation, are you sure the wind is still blowing away from the vineyard next door, or are you buying some dead grapes this year? And did you already decide if you're going under that wire that is 300' away as you are approaching at a buck fifty with 5000#'s of poison straddled in-between a literal bomb of fuel? Because if you didn't, you're going to hit it as you instinctively pull up, requiring a tear down ow the $489K engine, and no work while it's down... Break, break, one nine... can I get a radio check? A few thousand hours of that and he'll be having a sandwich and a pop, catching up on an Ebook or Rosetta Stone, while spraying the country side and wondering why he was so task saturated just flying the damn thing before.... But he damned sure wasn't born thataway.


ya I get it... you can walk, talk, chew gum yada, yada, yada... Turns out I might could too I'm also not afraid to admit that if you don't train your brain to prioritize, it will take the path of least resistance when you are instantly and unpleasantly surprised. That path is the way you unintentionally trained for... it's why many pilots will die pulling the stick or yoke back when the wing has already quit, and why others have died making radio calls. As was the case in the recent mid air.

I agree whole heartedly with your comment that communication is lacking in the vast majority of radio comms today... I am just not ready to make that a priority over flying the airplane.

As someone who also spends a fair amount of time in the air, like you I could probably fill out an entire book on ridiculous radio transmissions du jour. Sometimes I think 'that pilot should have thought before they keyed', sometimes you can pick the obvious errors like 'on final for 20'... when you can see them on 02, shoot I've been at the place that comes to mind there and had a call for final on 22? Maybe he's landing both at the same time?... Turns out they're human too. I probably pick out more awkward transmissions than the average Joe because I'm not poised to hit the trigger for my own call, but rather content disseminating the disheveled calls of others and keying up when it counts.

Good radio work is good... making your radio work good is great, but it doesn't fix the bad radio work of those you can't control, that's a one way road. And once more that assumes the other guy even has a radio, has it set right, knows how to use it, but is just not good with it.

Learning how to not be a target works regardless of how well the other guy flies... I *think* that was the message here.

Take care, Rob

I was in the frank church circus again last weekend...loved it. But, I just want to reach through the radio and slap all these jerries yammerin' away 122.9 about breakfast biskits meanwhile stomping all over the aerial firefighting crews trying to get in and out of Stanley without killing any of the tourons who can't be bothered to look out for a long line trailing beneath the choppa.

Military operations into remote sites by multiple aircraft involve a lot of planning and a briefing and debriefing of all involved including all pilots and all crew. Uncontrolled has none of that and is therefore uncontrolled. Expecting otherwise is dangerous. Attempting otherwise is admirable except that after launch, trying to sort things out on the radio can be more dangerous than just see and avoid alone. Establishing chain of command would be helpful if accepted by every PIC as in the military or ATC system.

I remain convinced that high wattage LED pulse lights would substantially reduce the incident rate around uncontrolled airports and airspace. Flying into Lake Hood would convince most anyone of this.

I had my first experience with ADSB during my flight with Damon recently. We only picked up one airplane at near the same altitude and one mile. Damon turned and descended, but we never saw him. Yes, the wig wag lights are good. They are a heads up deal rather than splitting our attention.

Timbuk2 wrote:I remain convinced that high wattage LED pulse lights would substantially reduce the incident rate around uncontrolled airports and airspace. Flying into Lake Hood would convince most anyone of this.

First post here ever...


ABSOLUTELY THIS!

Until very recently, I was one of those “kerosene burners” with Chester on the tail. From a perspective of “that damn 737” I cannot emphasize how much wig-wags help higher performance aircraft see and avoid. Along with good radio techniques (we had very specific instructions, often airport specific in our Ops manual) and just plain (plane) common courtesy. Yeah...I’m sure (no, I KNOW) we had some jerks on our side, but mixing it up with a SuperCub was one of the enjoyable challenges you rarely got CONUS.

No help to the jets, but both my military instrument and my civilian low altitude experience have given me optimal see and avoid primacy. From the initial approach fix onward, the Huey airspeed was 60 kts. That gave me some time to sort things out once in visual conditions. Low altitude arrival from crop field or on a pipeline, seeking aircraft against an open sky background rather than ground clutter, was very helpful. Yes, communication can help or be a distraction. From a low altitude view it is amazing, however, how dissimilar talk is to actual position in many cases. Towers appear tall, but they are well below traffic pattern altitude. Sky background is really helpful for aircraft sighting. The assumption that we see everything we hear is dangerous. Most pilots just assume the talker is where he says he is. Crop dusters, pipeline patrol pilots, and tower operators know better.