You're a real piece of work...............

Is the horse dead yet

Zzz wrote:

EZFlap wrote:There is an unsophistacted element on this board.

We're out here, lurking in the wings drinking second rate lager and eating day-old donuts, poring over the various literary resources at our disposal through besmudged spectacles for synonyms that best express our ire for the fan boys of the device that has Clyde Cessna performing an uncommanded roll in his grave... We're the long armed apes with such anatomical advantages that even our empathy for the misshapen or inflexible is a forgotten vestigial emotion. We are the... unsophistacted.

After running the battery dead on my iPad using a dictionary app, I have come to the conclusion.......
I must be a redneck.

Anyone not interested in this subject (or who dislikes any of the participants) can simply scroll pst this thread, in a merciful act of equine euthanasia as it affects them. There's plenty of threads here that either don't interest me or that do offend me in some way.

OK, so some people will think I'm a piece of work (or worse). Very few of them made that same kind of "piece of work" comment when disrespectful, mean-spirited or pejorative intent was coming my way. Seems like some of the pundits here have a one-way check valve where their sense of fairness should be, They of course have every right to support/defend/chastise who they choose to, with or without any amount of fairness or impartiality, at their discretion. Likewise, I maintain the right to point out this one-sidedness to the forum so that it is not accidentally overlooked.

What so many people don't seem to notice is that I've always tried to match my "tone" and words to the respectfulness/friendliness/nastiness/sincerity/acidity of comments regarding this subject. Those of you who think I'm an ass might take the time to do an archival search to verify whether my comments are almost always commensurate with what is aimed my way.

That would require a temporary removal of the check valve.

The comments I made about the merits of the product itself, who should be ambarrassed and why, and what it is that justifies the negtivity shown, are awaiting a response.

EZFlap wrote:The comments I made about the merits of the product itself, who should be ambarrassed and why, and what it is that justifies the negtivity shown, are awaiting a response.

"Ambarrassed" and why about what it is that justifies or not.....

Perhaps I am just an "unsophistacted" (SP BTW) luddite who hasn't participated in the Perlan Project, hung with the Chief Scientist at NASA Dryden, and happen to be a simple "redneck,..." for Christ sake fearless leader, (you know who u are,) lest the BS continue to thicken... please take this foolish thread out to the woodshed and give it its due.

Crzyivan13 wrote:

That is some funny shit! And boy, does it fit this thread!

I saw Bill's invention at OSH several years ago, at his vendor booth. I thought it was interesting, but I probably would have been more interested if his pretty girl had been at the booth, too. Frankly, I think the device has a lot of merit for the kind of back country flying that many here do. Since I'm much less talented as a back country pilot than those many are, it's not a device that I think I need--I won't be going where they go.

But you know, there are many things in life that we don't need, but which enhance our experiences. I remember clearly the first time I rode in an air conditioned car--my great uncle was a big wig with US Steel, and his chauffeured late 50s Cadillac limo had a huge device in its trunk which pumped cool air through clear plastic pipes past the rear window, into more pipes in the roof, with vents that allowed all that neat cool air to filter down on the driver and passengers. "Someday I'm going to own an air conditioned Caddy", I thought. Well, I've never owned a Cadillac, and I put off owning air conditioning in any car until my 81 VW Rabbit Cabriolet--but I can't imagine owning a non air conditioned car now. And even finding one today is hard.

Same thing with our house. This house was built in 1977, so it went some 33 years without air conditioning. Neither of us had ever lived in a house with air conditioning, other than noisy window air conditioners, until we had it installed 5 years ago. Now we can't imagine living without air conditioning--but we did, for most of our lives.

But do any of us need air conditioning, in our cars or in our homes?

So yeah, most or all of us can live without Bill's invention, and yet there seems to be a large enough part of the pilot population who have found his invention to be just what they want.

It's a bit like the back and forth we had awhile ago about AOA indicators. Those that have them, like them, and are proselytes for them. Those that don't have them not only don't see the benefit, but sometimes they attack those who do have them, with belittling comments that impugn the piloting skills of those AOA owners.

I'm not one of Bill's customers, and other than meeting him at OSH, I don't know him. But I see a lot of unfairness, sometimes nastiness, in the anti-EZ Flap comments--and frankly I'm surprised at it, because this forum has been a model of civility for as long as I've been participating, unlike some other aviation forums I've participated in. Yeah, we disagree at times, but mostly when we've disagreed with one another, we don't get into name calling and ad hominem attacks. I suspect the vast majority of those comments come from folks who have never used or even seen the device. As my step dad used to say when as a teenager I thought I knew everything about everything, "Don't knock it until you've tried it."

Cary

.
Thank you Cary, I appreciate the kind words and sentiment.

bigrenna wrote:
Perhaps I am just an "unsophistacted" (SP BTW) luddite who hasn't participated in the Perlan Project, hung with the Chief Scientist at NASA Dryden, and happen to be a simple "redneck,..." for Christ sake fearless leader, (you know who u are,) lest the BS continue to thicken... please take this foolish thread out to the woodshed and give it its due.

Dang bigrenna, you caught a couple of mis-spellings that I accidentally let through being in a rush to do something else. Good on you. I'm completely Ambarrassed.

I would like a clarification from you on one thing, if you'd be kind enough.

Since I've based almost all of my claims, boasts, statements, retorts, etc. on actual facts surrounding this issue and the product under review, and since you admittedly have no experience with it, no facts, and no first hand knowledge of the product (whether it works, whether it's useful, whether it allows you to fly better, etc.).... but you've been vocal about how you're pretty sure it isn't worthwhile... exactly whose BS is it that you are asking to be taken out and disposed of before it thickens any further?

I have no idea if you are actually unsophisticated. You see, we've never actually met so I can't pass judgment on your produc...er... level of sophistication. That'd be sort of wrong for me to do

What'd he say bout rednecks??

EZFlap wrote:....
So without demanding that anyone embrace and hero-worship the product or its inventor... somebody please tell me what I did that was so wrong here and why I'm the bad guy? ....

In case you haven't got it yet, Bill, it's not your product that annoys people-- it's your constant promoting of it, every chance you get, on our discussion threads. I've offered a few things for sale here on the site- I posted them in a for sale thread, and they either sold or (more often) didn't, on their own merits. I didn't constantly refer to them and hype them up, often in other (unrelated) threads.

No offense, but you asked.

hotrod180 wrote:
No offense, but you asked.

None taken. IIRC, I think it's been a while since a comment or posting of mine was promoting anything that was not reasonably relevant to the (original or drifting) subject of the thread.

For example, if there was a discussion about the value of inertia reel harnesses, and someone posted that the inertia reels gave the pilot freedom of movement to reach the flap handle, I certainly might have made a comment that the pilot really should not need that much movement to do so. Although that could legitimately be seen as a self-serving comment (no argument), it would also still have been directly related to the discussion thread.

For the recent activity on this specific thread which is all about this specific upgrade, I'm not sure how I've spammed or scammed or violated anything that even remotely justifies the nose-bone natives boiling such a big pot.

Just because someone doesnt see the value in your product we are nose bone natives??? Seriously? Shutter the windows and take in the cat.

Cary wrote:...I see a lot of unfairness, sometimes nastiness, in the anti-EZ Flap comments--and frankly I'm surprised at it, because this forum has been a model of civility for as long as I've been participating, unlike some other aviation forums I've participated in.

Cary

I agree Cary. This is pretty much the norm here at BCP. I'm not sure what it is about this thread, but for some reason it has really stuck in my craw.

For sure we all know the person is not the product, but in some rare cases, the entrepreneur chooses a marketing strategy in which he/she becomes the product. This is the tact that Bill has publicly pursued, and to be fair is the convention which he chooses. The avatar is commercial, he speaks here as EZ Flap, and has even gone so far as to paint himself in the light of Gorgeous George, an infamous character people loved to hate. He has even gone to the extent of denigrating his detractors, so In that light, I don't think this thread should be considered vitriolic.

With respect to my personal feelings about the product, here's the deal... This thread is full of bold statements talking about "proof" and "safety" and "improved situational awareness." When it gets questioned, one gets hit with insults about being unsophisticated and closed minded. From where I sit, these claims are subjective at best. Testimonials are just that, testimonials. They should not be confused with quantitative data, and certainly not touted as fact. There are lots of studies where folks are given a little white pill and miraculously their malady goes away, but this doesn't mean the sugar pill they ate cured the cancer....

With respect to my posts... I suppose sarcasm doesn't translate on the web etc etc etc, and poking fun at spelling is childish... presumably my misguided response to the rolling diatribes, but from where I sit, the long posts seem to feel as if one is trying to communicate to someone who speaks a different language. Yelling louder just aint gonna get the message across any better.

My thoughts on EZ Flap, (and I should be clear that I only am talking about 100 series Cessnas...) I have been fortunate/crazy enough to look at, handle, install, examine, and try pretty much every STC available for the 170/180/185. Im not sure what that's all about. Stupid at most, expensive at best, but it's my cross to bear. When I first heard of the EZ Flap, I thought cool, something else to upgrade/try... But when I got a look at it, I changed my mind. At first, this thread was a mutual admiration society with a bunch of "I saw it at OSH" etc... but when I politely commented "am I missing something" the tread quickly turned in a different direction. There have been a couple of nice testimonials, one I must say from Rob whom I respect a great deal really made me wonder, but alas it didn't change my perspective. It's too bad things were not just left there.

Please don't confuse being subtle with lack of experience or personal knowledge. When someone gives their opinion, its not necessarily the case to say they "admittedly have no experience." By not illustrating my negative experience publicly, I was trying to be respectful and polite. BCP is a great community, and I work hard to fully support it and its members. Of course Bill should be lauded for the entrepreneurship and for getting over the hurdles with the FAA to bring the EZ to market. For sure that is a huge mountain to scale.... But since I am being chided for a found-less opinion, I will say this. Bill and I did meet at a show and I did take a long and hard look at the product. Just so happens I didn't introduce myself at the time. I have also seen it installed in one or two aircraft around the country and for my money, its just not for me.

Lots more folks than we think take the information here on this site as gospel, and I think we owe it to ourselves to bring up both sides so we all can be informed. My issue is that it seems that no dissenting voice is being allowed to rise without it being construed as an attack. Its like back in the Bush days with the "with us or against us rhetoric." I find the tactics to be bullying and take umbridge with the name calling.

For me, I attempt to keep it simple. (yeah I know this sounds like BS considering what I am flying now...) I said it before, and I will say it again... with respect to the stock flap handle, there is no problem here to solve. A forward seat position in a 100 series Cessna is not "unsafe." It is not dangerous or unsafe to use the stock flap handle, and any regular sized individual should have no problems learning how to fly without issue with the stock configuration. Again, IMHO there is no problem to solve.

Granted, several folks here have spoken up with testimony that the device has really helped them personally due to a particular deficit. It may be a fused spine, obesity, perhaps you are a shorter person, don't want to spend the money on inertial reel harnesses, or just lack the simple flexibility to bend over. Rob's point is that because he is super tall and he likes to fly with the seat far back on McFarlane tracks, the unit helps him reach from the outfield : ) For these folks, if it helps them even 1%, its a good thing and they should buy the product. My problem Bill, is that rather than expand on these great testimonials, you talk about "facts" and "safety" which frankly just cant be supported. Just saying that someone is safer doesn't make them safer...

I have flown 300+ hard hours this past 12 months in 170's and 180's, most of which have been off airport in sub 1500'. About 40% of that has been sub 900'. Im 5' 11" and fly with the seat forward/all the way down. For me, I have no issues either using my flap handle or seeing over the nose. Im for sure no engineer, but IMHO, the safety claims made here are hyperbolic. Furthermore, in my experience, the dangerous period with the 100 series Cessna Johnson Bar is not "popping" the flaps on takeoff, but with dumping them in the landing cycle. The idea of grabbing the EZ at 40 degrees, then having to switch hand positions so you can move from 20 to 0 adds a level of distraction that for me is unnecessary. KISS. If you cant reach, I'd rather see someone go from 40 to 10 in one move then clean up the airplane when stopped rather than have to fumble with hand position during a critical phase. One of the first things I did with my current 180 was toss the shoulder harnesses. Why? Because I could not reach the flap handle without squirming out of the harness. The answer was not to extend the flap handle with extra stuff, but to install a modern set of belts that gave me the comfort and ease of movement in the cabin to fly the airplane as was intended.

Anyway, I think we all have the right to make up our own minds. Bill has certainly gotten tons of traction here which will undoubtedly bring him sales, so good on him. He is a member of our rag tag bunch, and has contributed wisely in the past on many topics so for that, should be supported. That said, Bill please consider that folks should be allowed to make up their own minds with as much information as they can get... My suggestion (again) is that we stop trying to squash the dissent and just let it lie. The internet has a way of working things out on its own, and people are smart enough take it all in and decide for themselves w/out the barker stuffing it down their throats.

Just my 0.02

Thank you for the thoughtful and sincere reply bigrenna. Your points are well taken, well written, and I can see that they are well intentioned. Thank you for pointing out that one of your issues has been subjective claims of increased visibility etc. that were not quantified. That is a completely valid complaint and I will try to address it directly:

If I can get my camera guy and the (hopeful) "public review" pilot to help out with it, We can attempt to quantify the change in outward visibility that a pilot will achieve, between using the EZ Flap handle and the stock Cessna handle in the worst case scenario (zero flap position). That should be possible using a still photo and some angular measurements. In the interim, some of the photos/videos on my website should allow interested parties to make a casual guess at the angular increase. Not all of those photos (or video capture) are in a Cessna 100.

It would take a full committed flight test to quantify the reduction in takeoff roll that I have mentioned. The only numerical "data" on that general subject that I know about is (BCP post by an owner) the Piper PA-20 or PA-22 pilot's manual that states up to a 20% reduction in takeoff roll is achieved by using the last-second "pop" technique. That of course could be completely different on a Cessna, and I have no idea how Piper measured this either. Perhaps if anyone on BCP or the 180 club knows Gary Aldrich (qualified flight test person, owns a 180), they might convince him to set up a test to measure the change takeoff and/or landing performance using this upgrade and the associated techniques that I have claimed. I don't know him personally, but his position and reputation in the local flight test community serves as an automatic yes from me if he is interested in testing this device.

One of the claimed safety improvements could possibly be quantified, but a big part of the data is probably closely guarded. The number and/or percentage of accidental un-lock incidents with inertia reel harnesses (and the number of failures to un-lock when desired) is probably not something that those manufacturers want released.

We actually did measure the time it took to retract the flaps from 40, to 20, to zero using the EZFlap and having to switch from one handle to the other. It was less than a second. For certain it will take a new EZ Flap owner five or ten landings to reliably do it that fast.

All of the other sales claims involve subjective opinion. This is why I knew it was critical to let the group pick the review pilot.

At the risk of unintentionally offending anyone, I would like to offer a "please DO try this at home" test that anyone can do while we are waiting for the public test/review to happen. This exercise will enable any of the people lurking or watching this discussion to see if they think there is anything to this upgrade. http://www.ezflaphandle.com/index.php?o ... 5&Itemid=4

I'm seeing threads like this popping up in a number of forums, I think it has something to do with the heat. I mean who wants to fly when it's a 109 degrees. I'm not leaving for Alliance till the morning so please continue.

Bigr, your posts are longer than Ez's, and he is working towards a reward at the end.
I don't have one of his flap handles and I don't agree with everything he says but he does have an STC.
That's more than most can say about their Internet forum sales.....canyon turns, flap settings for takeoffs, short field work, off airport landings, mountain top landings....I grew my nut sack big enough to water ski from people on the internet giving advice. Most would call bullshit on it and they would be right doing so, I've watched 2 airplanes land on their back doing it, but it's all good. Nothing ventured nothing gained, take it or leave it.
It's the Internet man, read what you want and piss and moan a little when you disagree, but it's not personal.

It's sad that the Internet ghetto is encroaching here (possibly to stay) on this website. People taking pleasure in "hurting" others is really bizarre for a recreational forum.

I'm no angle but, Zane did a great job of helping me learn to fly bush along with the members here. Let's not use this place as a freeking punching bag.

Carry on...

As a developer of another sort. (soft as opposed to hard!), I appreciate the discussion back and forth in this thread. It's gotten heated here and there, but what doesn't. +1 to the BCP guys for letting the thread take it's course. Following it play by play . Thanks!

- Joseph