I understand integration of instrument with contact flying. The FAA has been pushing that concept for fifty years. But they take no responsibility for VFR separation. They do great with IFR because of unity of orientation. Both controller and pilot have total procedural track and altitude instrument controlled orientation.

Yes, instruments can help find traffic. And they continually get better at it. Our orientation has to be totally see and avoid, however, or we will hit something. Same as with driving. We are not safe when we find anonymity in altitude. Altitude and boxes do not free us from the need for a contact orientation unless we are IFR.

So, unless IFR, the FAA is looking for enforcement control with the gadgets. Unless they are willing to be responsible for separation, they are looking for something else.

BkK-thanks for the clarification. Hammer is right on, be way more afraid of the private sector, FB etc if you are concerned about privacy.

I recently saw a google map depiction that the FAA pulled up with my airplane track displayed in what appeared to be a "ping' every second using my new ADS-B out Garmin transponder. It even showed the ground track of the route I took taxiing to my hangar. With nothing more than my N number, they can see every where I've been and the altitude I was at at any time, including when on the ground.

It made me wonder why I have a 406 ELT, SPOT tracker, and a PLB in the plane. I couldn't get lost if I tried.

Just looked at a flightaware posting on a recent flight of mine. Recently installed Garmin ADS B in out. The ADS B uses both satellite and ground based tracking (radar) to report position. Without both forms tracking it appears as no position is reported. On this last flight I was under radar coverage for half the flight so what was reported on flight aware was a straight line between the last radar and the next which on this flight was 25 miles. Maybe they aren't always watching.

.

I will miss the Denver Center controller's information that radar contact is lost and to contact Albuquerque Center in fifteen minutes, when on the lowest MEA.

I have come to the conclusion that ADS-B is useful for those who depart airport A, climb to altitude, and fly waypoint to waypoint, eventually arriving at airport B. For all the rest of us, and what we might call recreational flying, it will ultimately be another nail in the coffin of our sport. Unless you are able to fly in remote areas of Alaska or Canada, I'm afraid the days of motoring around low looking at things on the ground are going away, probably sooner than I would like. There are plenty of people who would like nothing more than to relegate private aviation to the history books and ADS-B is another tool they will use to accomplish their goal. And it's too late to stop it.

kg,

I expect you are right as far as the equipment goes. Hopefully they will not want to put the people effort into monitoring everyone. The week after 9/11 they put the effort into the military look down radar and caught a lot of crop dusters. Then in another week they decided meybe we would need to eat in the winter of 2001 and let them go back to work.

Contact

Of course to be really stealthy, you'd have to shut off your cell phone too. As long as we all have those in our pockets we are getting tracked in and out of the cockpit.

Coyote wrote:Just looked at a flightaware posting on a recent flight of mine. Recently installed Garmin ADS B in out. The ADS B uses both satellite and ground based tracking (radar) to report position. Without both forms tracking it appears as no position is reported. On this last flight I was under radar coverage for half the flight so what was reported on flight aware was a straight line between the last radar and the next which on this flight was 25 miles. Maybe they aren't always watching.

Hard to tell from Flightaware information--I'm not understanding exactly where they get theirs. But it's obviously more than just radar imaging. For instance, on the La Garita weekend, on Friday September 15th, I flew down the Front Range, ducking around the Denver B to the east, then direct to Pueblo, then GOSIP, then over La Veta Pass into the San Luis Valley. Going over La Veta was painfully slow at times, because of the wind. So once I could do so, I descended to pick up some speed and try to make up for some of the time, and also I wanted to get off of the oxygen I'd put on back somewhere around Pueblo and get my dog down to breathing level again. I leveled off at about 8500', which is only about 1000' AGL, as I flew across the Valley toward La Garita. I used Flight Following from shortly after take off from Greeley.

In the past, before I had ADS-B Out, I could count on Center losing me if I descended into the Valley. I don't know where their radar units are, but typically they'd say "radar contact lost" when I descended to about 10,500'. This time, I was just north of Del Norte when the controller said that he saw nothing in the air between me and La Garita, and to squawk VFR. And Flightaware shows my entire flight to just north of Del Norte, only a few miles from La Garita, about where the controller had me switch to VFR.

So I have to conclude that ADS-B Out allows the FAA (and Flightaware) to keep track of my flights much better than before. To me, that's not something to be alamed about, but rather it's comforting. If I have to go down, they'll be able to track my location much more accurately. That plus my 406 ELT and PLBs, and I shouldn't have to be "lost" for very long, at all!

Cary

Durango Skywagon wrote:Of course to be really stealthy, you'd have to shut off your cell phone too. As long as we all have those in our pockets we are getting tracked in and out of the cockpit.

Yes, cell phones, ipads, cars, gps units.... they all save information that can be accessed by somebody. The difference is that none of those are mandated and, as far as I know, none of those enable the general public to go to a website, type in a simple number, and see everywhere you have been. None of those allow easy access for criminals to see when I'm not home so they can rob me. Yet with my N number they can see if I'm away flying. They just haven't discovered it yet, but they will.

Yes, you can block your info from FlightAware.. but it's my understanding that is because FlightAware is voluntarily allowing you to block it. They don't have to and some other websites are not blocking your info.

Try this one. Select "registration" under Search Type and put in your N number. If you have ADS-B anyone can see where you've been, or where you are today if you are flying. It's public information.

https://flight-data.adsbexchange.com/

Interesting comments on ADS-B.

I guess if you have a 1090 system you are in continuous contact w/ the system; however, with my 978 system I can fly about 15 minutes away from S43 in Snohomish WA and have no tower contact. See the same thing in the Idaho backcountry when I am in the canyons.

ADS-B is nice when flying in congested airspace, but is not going to be of much use in a canyon or a mountain valley for that matter if there are no towers there. The Mark I eyeball is still the best instrument for VFR separation.

TD

The Mark I eyeball is still the best instrument for VFR separation

There's an AD on that.

kg wrote:

Durango Skywagon wrote:Of course to be really stealthy, you'd have to shut off your cell phone too. As long as we all have those in our pockets we are getting tracked in and out of the cockpit.

Yes, cell phones, ipads, cars, gps units.... they all save information that can be accessed by somebody. The difference is that none of those are mandated and, as far as I know, none of those enable the general public to go to a website, type in a simple number, and see everywhere you have been. None of those allow easy access for criminals to see when I'm not home so they can rob me. Yet with my N number they can see if I'm away flying. They just haven't discovered it yet, but they will.

Yes, you can block your info from FlightAware.. but it's my understanding that is because FlightAware is voluntarily allowing you to block it. They don't have to and some other websites are not blocking your info.

Try this one. Select "registration" under Search Type and put in your N number. If you have ADS-B anyone can see where you've been, or where you are today if you are flying. It's public information.

https://flight-data.adsbexchange.com/

All true, and valid concerns. I don't like it either.

But the VAST majority of monitoring/stalking is done via voluntary disclosures on facebook, etc.. If you (not you specifically, kg, but the royal You) post any regular updates on facebook and the like, you need not worry about flight tracking...anyone who wants to know where you are has a much more reliable source...You.

I bet that at this point facebook etc. is mentioned in about 80% of all police reports involving breaking and entering, stalking, harassment, etc.. And the victims make it sooooo easy.

Not defending flight tracking...just endlessly amazed when I see people posting pictures of their play tickets or dinner plate or hotel window view, essentially telling the entire world they're not at home right now.

Page 3 of this and I have yet to hear why you don't like it. No really, why? It's not "privacy" and it's not "just cuz". What's the real reason?

Afraid of being caught? Caught doing what? Are you doing anything illegal?

Privacy? Anyone with a true privacy concern isn't on this forum, or online. They will not comply with the ADS-B mandate and likely you've never heard of them or seen their plane. Point is - if you think you've found the perfect hiding spot then you havne't found the perfect hiding spot.

You don't want this information used against you? Again, if you aren't doing anthing illegal so what?

You use GPS, cell phones, internet message forums, social media, pay your taxes, municipal bills, renew the registration on your aircraft, send in 337s and STCs to the FAA, renew your medical certificate, do BFRs (or training every 6 months for work like me), and NOW you want to complain about privacy or being tracked?

Explain it to me.

I thought I'd answered that..

For me, it's a poor value.

Adds nothing but is quite costly.

If I wished I can get ADS-B In for very little money.

The privacy issue is less relevent, although I loathe govenment intervention in my private life.

Mountain Doctor wrote:I thought I'd answered that..

For me, it's a poor value.

Adds nothing but is quite costly.

If I wished I can get ADS-B In for very little money.

The privacy issue is less relevent, although I loathe govenment intervention in my private life.

Poor value, great answer. I suppose that is one problem with regulation, it has to apply to everyone. I'm certain for a lot of folks there is no need for it considering where/how you operate. But again, it's gotta apply to everyone. You could also look at it as your paying the cost for someone else's benefit - you get little from it still. When I flew private we went to all sorts of out of the way places. Places where radio calls were optional and squawking mode C? What is this, Atlanta? Ha! The number planes I never saw likely eclipses the ones that did have mode C and cause me an escape maneuver thanks to a TCAS RA. Benefit for me, not so much for you - except I didn't hit you!

It 5 years when y'all on on here talking about how awesome it is seeing traffic when you're on your way in/out of some of these places....

Just imagine what it'll be like 2 years from now when folks are screaming bloody murder about the deadline, like it snuck up on them!

Looking at a map, I'd guess that less than 5% of the country requires ADSB out.

I live and fly 95% in the other 95%, as it were. The 5% where I would need it I'll avoid, or take another airplane.

Granted, the 5% where it will be required is population dense, but I am blessed to live and fly in the country/desert.

If/when it, or some other edict, is mandated everywhere I'll consider it.

It would depend on how old I am at that point and where I am in my flying career.

Also, prices will come down.

Mountain Doctor wrote:Looking at a map, I'd guess that less than 5% of the country requires ADSB out.

I live and fly 95% in the other 95%, as it were. The 5% where I would need it I'll avoid, or take another airplane.

Granted, the 5% where it will be required if population dense, but I blessed to live and fly in the country/desert.

If/when it, or some other edict, is mandated everywhere I'll consider it.

It would depend on how old I am at that point and where I am in my flying career.

Also, prices will come down.

I'm not so sure about your 95%/5% "rule", Doc. The ADS-B Out rule will require ADS-B Out for the following:
>Within Mode C veils. Every Class B in the country has a Mode C veil of 30 mile radius around the primary Class B airport.
>Within and above all Class B and C airspace (i.e., you can't fly over them without it).
>Above 10,000' MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet AGL (IOW, if terrain requires that you go above 10,000' MSL, you can be up to 2500' above the terrain, even if that means being above 10,000' MSL).
>Flights across international borders out of or into the US (it doesn't matter whether the other country requires ADS-B Out).

I haven't measured that, but I'm willing to bet that it's more than 5% of the airspace will require ADS-B Out.

Benefit-wise, I'm sold. Seeing so much traffic, having weather in the cockpit, being seen by others that have ADS-B In, being seen by ATC when their radar would not see me--these are all good things.

As for prices getting lower, my thought is that they've bottomed out. I've been watching prices, just to see if I was penny-wise for adopting ADS-B Out early, strictly from a financial standpoint. So far, I haven't seen anything that is less than what I paid, although there are some now that are within a few bucks. All in, my system cost me about $5,000, including the new transponder and all of the labor and bits and pieces of stuff necessary to tie it to my 430W. Whenever I see someone found a quote for less, it's because it was a low ball guesstimate based on a best-case scenario, which hardly ever works out in the avionics business, especially with old airplanes.

Let's face it--aviation has been the subject of intrusive and expensive government mandates for longer than you and I have flown. This is just another one.

Cary

I did the math...

About 37 Class B airports/Mode C veils. 3350 square miles.

About 80 Class C airports. 1200 square miles.

So 4,550 square miles of ADSB restriction.

There are 3.12 million square miles in the continental US.

That works out to .14%.

I can avoid the .14%.

It's actually likely much less than that as much of B overlaps with C.