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Backcountry Pilot • FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)1

FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)1

Discuss the legality of flying the backcountry, FARs, advocacy, and aviation relevant legislation. Registered users only.
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FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)1

Have a question for the Att's, CFI's, FAA, and anybody else that claims to know the answer? :shock:
What does Present as it is used in the FAR's mean? #-o
Show, or Give to? [-o<
Specifically any case law or personal situations where it has happened, not really interested in what your brother inlaw said his friends uncle did! [-X
This is a serious question and would like serious answers if possible, Hard for this group but trying anyway!! :mrgreen:
Thanks in advance for your time!!
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Re: FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)1

(l) Inspection of certificate. Each person who holds an airman certificate, medical certificate, authorization, or license required by this part must present it and their photo identification as described in paragraph (a)(2) of this section for inspection upon a request from:

(1) The Administrator;

(2) An authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board;

(3) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer; or

(4) An authorized representative of the Transportation Security Administration.

I would say show it. Do not EVER EVER willingly hand over your certificate. If you do you may not get it back. They can look at it "You can look at it but I am not giving it up to you (relinquish)!"
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Re: FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)1

The "surrender" part of the equation gets blown out of proportion. Here's AOPA's attorney basically saying that it's ok for you to hand the document to, for example, an inspector doing a ramp check.

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All- ... unsel.aspx

My personal experience was that I got ramp checked once and had a nice conversation with the FSDO guy on this subject. He said that the whole notion of "surrender" by handing it to him for inspection was an urban myth, but that he's - of course - aware that it exists so it doesn't bother him if people clutch their documents with white knuckles while he looks them over. More amusingly he said that if someone does wander off with my docs claiming I've surrendered them that I should call the police as they have no right to do so.
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Re: FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)1

Had a customer land his Mooney at Henderson and FSDO inspector "class" of 3-4 newbys go over airplane on ramp. They demanded everything including log books brought to there office . Mooney driver gave them xerox copies of his Arrow file and license /medical. They took his logbooks and combed over them for better part of year ---- finally I went to local FSDO and said I need the log books for annual . FSDO said I'd need owner to come in With attorney to get them back . Turns out attorney was partner in airplane . Don't ever give FAA or there buddies anything but xerox copies.
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Re: FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)1

So we know that the FAA Cannot take it and that to give it to them to look at is not surrendering because to surrender it voluntarily you have to fill out a form to give them also. :shock:
Bob Hoover knew this also but he had pissed one guy off so after many months and Dollars he got his back!! :shock:
So much for that known fact, didn't help him any at all! [-X [-o<
So lets jump over to the LEO who might not know that he can't take it? :(
What is a person to do?? #-o
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Re: FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)1

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Re: FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)1

It says right on registration "do not copy". If you want to violate that order go right ahead. Not advised, but it is done regularly and without criminal intent a copy probably will not be a problem, however, you will have broken the law. Present is simply to let them look at it. They cannot legally take it. But you have to show it to them. If you want to try to hold on to it, that's up to you. I wouldn't want to act that paranoid and distrustful.

Mike
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Re: FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)1

M6RV6 wrote:So we know that the FAA Cannot take it and that to give it to them to look at is not surrendering because to surrender it voluntarily you have to fill out a form to give them also. :shock:
Bob Hoover knew this also but he had pissed one guy off so after many months and Dollars he got his back!! :shock:
So much for that known fact, didn't help him any at all! [-X [-o<
So lets jump over to the LEO who might not know that he can't take it? :(
What is a person to do?? #-o


The Inspector (s) that were the root of the problem in Hoovers case did not TAKE his medical. They started an administrative process to rescind his medical.

No Inspector has the legal authority to TAKE your pilot certificate or medical. They can start a process, and if they are successful, Legal will instruct you to surrender your license/medical. That is effectively an order of the Administrator. That letter would tell you to return the cert to FAA and that your privileges are either suspended or revoked, and the process by which it may or may not be returned.

Similarly, a LEO does not have the authority to confiscate your pilot certificate, and if that were to happen, the Administrator would tell them to return it. Technically and legally, your pilot certificate belongs to the Administator. A County Mountie has no authority to seize federal property.

There is so much of this kind of paranoia out there, yet it's really hard to document actual cases where an FAA Inspector has violated this.

As to the FAA holding aircraft maintenance logs for a long time, I'd be starting up the ladder of the FAA, starting with the FSDO Mgr, then the Region, etc. AOPA would also be a good resource in a case like that. Those documents belong to the aircraft owner, and they can't be "taken" by the FAA without the Chief Counsels authorization, and that means a violation....

Here's a really good resource for interpretations of regs, by the way: www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarte ... retations/

MTV
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Re: FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)1

mtv wrote:
M6RV6 wrote:So we know that the FAA Cannot take it and that to give it to them to look at is not surrendering because to surrender it voluntarily you have to fill out a form to give them also. :shock:
Bob Hoover knew this also but he had pissed one guy off so after many months and Dollars he got his back!! :shock:
So much for that known fact, didn't help him any at all! [-X [-o<
So lets jump over to the LEO who might not know that he can't take it? :(
What is a person to do?? #-o


The Inspector (s) that were the root of the problem in Hoovers case did not TAKE his medical. They started an administrative process to rescind his medical.

No Inspector has the legal authority to TAKE your pilot certificate or medical. They can start a process, and if they are successful, Legal will instruct you to surrender your license/medical. That is effectively an order of the Administrator. That letter would tell you to return the cert to FAA and that your privileges are either suspended or revoked, and the process by which it may or may not be returned.

Similarly, a LEO does not have the authority to confiscate your pilot certificate, and if that were to happen, the Administrator would tell them to return it. Technically and legally, your pilot certificate belongs to the Administator. A County Mountie has no authority to seize federal property.

There is so much of this kind of paranoia out there, yet it's really hard to document actual cases where an FAA Inspector has violated this.

As to the FAA holding aircraft maintenance logs for a long time, I'd be starting up the ladder of the FAA, starting with the FSDO Mgr, then the Region, etc. AOPA would also be a good resource in a case like that. Those documents belong to the aircraft owner, and they can't be "taken" by the FAA without the Chief Counsels authorization, and that means a violation....

Here's a really good resource for interpretations of regs, by the way: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/hea ... retations/

MTV


Thanks MTV
PM you, I thought they pocketed his license??
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Re: FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)1

I thought they pocketed his license??


http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation ... bobhoover/
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Re: FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)1

Mr Hoover version compared to the FAA's, And we know as the FAA is part of the Government that they never would undertake anything slight of hand! :^o

The Case

Questionable Performance?

The story began at the Aerospace America Air Show in June 1992 where Bob Hoover was performing his usual aerobatic routine in his Shrike Commander. As a practice, FAA safety inspectors were observing the air show. During his act, Hoover apparently did not perform perfectly, to which, later, Hoover admitted was because of a malfunction of the airplane. He had an oil pump cavitation and cowl flap problem, he had said (Avweb, 1995). Two safety inspectors, Clint Boehler and James Kelln, who were allegedly at two different vantage points, noticed the slight abnormality of the routine. However, they did not bother to discuss with Hoover that day about their concerns.
"Voicing Concerns"

According to William Hark, an FAA medical expert, the two inspectors voiced their concerns to the local FSDO safety official, a co-worker, as well as their supervisors, as to "what should we do about this." That was 2 days after the show. The safety official had said that "Well, if you ask me, I'll talk to the medical people," and he proceeded to report the "problem" to the medical certification division. Dr. Hark said that he was "convinced that this was done out of concern for both Mr. Hoover's well being as the well-being of the people that attend these shows" (Avweb, 1995).

The First Round

It was not until 2 months later that the inspectors actually submitted a written report to the FAA medical doctors. It was based on these two reports that the FAA asked Hoover to submit to medical reevaluation (AOPA, 1996). In AOPA's "Pilot Counsel: A Chapter in the Life of Bob Hoover," John Yodice explains what then happened:

The FAA sent him to a psychiatrist in the Los Angeles area, who conducted "a comprehensive clinical evaluation, including extensive testing by a psychologist and a neurologist. The psychiatrist selected by the FAA, after reviewing the results of all the testing, concluded: "It is my opinion that Mr. Hoover is currently fit to hold a second class medical certificate from a neuropsychological and a neuropsychiatric point of view and should therefore be permitted to continue his flight activities."

"Voluntary Surrender"

The process did not stop. Dr. Bart Pakull, FAA's chief psychiatrist "referred the test results to a psychologist who has been a consultant to the FAA for 10 or 12 years and who has known Dr. Pakull for 15 years" (AOPA, 1994). After the psychologist gave his opinion to Dr. Pakull, he, "along with the FAA federal air surgeon, got on the telephone to Hoover and his doctor and told them that Hoover was not medically qualified. Hoover was told to surrender his medical certificate to his doctor. Hoover thought he had to, so he did" (AOPA, 1994). Hoover did not know that he did not have to, as stated explicitly in FAR 61.3(h). AOPA explained this regulation in its 1996 article, "Pilot Counsel � Hoover: The System Didn't Work:"
This regulation does require that a certificate holder "present it for inspection" if requested by the FAA, NTSB, or a law enforcement officer. However, it does not require surrender. If the FAA wants the certificate, it must honor the procedure required by law for the protection of the airman. Of course, a person may voluntarily surrender his or her certificate, but this situation may be easily misunderstood. So easily, in fact, that FAR 61.27 requires a person to sign a statement making clear that he or she understands the consequences of the voluntary surrender of a certificate. Unfortunately, FAR 61.27 applies only to pilot and flight instructor certificates. It does not apply to medical certificates.

The Second Round

Bob was "flabbergasted" that the FAA had said that he was medically unfit to fly, and he asked for a second chance; after all, he had flown 33 performances without a hitch since the Oklahoma air show (AOPA 1994). This time, Hoover was examined by UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute. As mentioned in "A Chapter of the Life of Bob Hoover," UCLA gave him a favorable report:

"We favor a recommendation that reinstates his license on a temporary 3-6 month period during which his current medical and neuropsychological status is closely monitored for potential change. Although such change is unlikely. . . . "

Results of the UCLA's test were sent to Georgetown Medical School where two doctors concluded, without personally examining him, that Bob Hoover was unfit to fly. Apparently Dr. Pakull and the FAA favored the unfavorable results over the favorable results and held the generally held unfavorable position that Hoover was unfit to fly. The FAA would not even give him a certificate limited to 3 or 6 months (AOPA, 1994). At about this time, Hoover's friends and famed attorney F. Lee Bailey and aviation attorney John Yodice decided to help. Yodice began informal discussions with the FAA doctors, whom, as John said, "always had an FAA lawyer in attendance. " Also, Dr. Pakull reportedly never was in attendance at these sessions. "The talks went nowhere" (AOPA, 1994).

The Third Round

Bob, still believing in his heart that there were simply some mistakes made, asked to be examined yet a third time to prove to the FAA that he was, indeed, fit to fly. This third time, Dr. Hisely, a neurosurgeon and a flight surgeon with the fighter squadron at Tinker Air Force Base in Oklahoma, performed the exam. Dr. Hisely is an active pilot who flies the Pitts Special, a P-51 Mustang, and the F-16 Falcon. He also certifies pilots medically fit to fly the F-16, and has no official connection to the FAA (AOPA, 1994). He promised Hoover that he would be tough on Hoover, forthright in his opinion, and that he would do a comprehensive exam on him. Hoover passed the exams that Hisely, along with clinical psychologist and pilot David Johnson administered. The FAA still did not give Hoover his medical back. (Remember that Hoover had given his medical to them because they had said he was not "medically qualified.")

Emergency Revocation

At this point F. Lee Baily and John Yodice formally demanded a return of Hoover's medical certificate. It was after this demand that the FAA used their power of emergency revocation of certificates under 49 U.S.C. 44709(c) and 46105(c), and revoked Bob Hoover's medical certificate. This emergency revocation policy is embodied in FAA Order 2150.3A. Under that emergency revocation procedure, the person had the right to appeal to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and the Federal Court of Appeals. However, the person loses the right to operate while the revocation proceeding is pending. The definition of "emergency" to the FAA is when a "certificate holder lack the technical qualification or the care, judgment and responsibility to hold a certificate." Senator James M. Inhofe has aptly pointed out that this definition was changed "in 1992, without review by congress or public comment." After revoking his medical certificate, the FAA said that Hoover's ability to fly had nothing to do with the impairment that the doctor's had found in a cognitive skills assessment. They simply believed that "Hoover could pose a threat to safety should an emergency occur."

Appeals

When Bob Hoover's medical certificate was revoked, there were two aspects of the revocation that could be appealed: the emergency nature of the order, or the merits of the order. If he challenged the emergency nature of the revocation order, the appeal would be taken to Federal Court. If he challenged the merits of the order, the appeal would be to the NTSB. Bob chose to appeal the emergency nature of the order. The case was assigned to an Administrative Law Judge, and then was reviewed by the full Board.

Proof

F. Lee Baily had suggested that Mr. Hoover videotape his routine to show the judge that he was competent to fly. Hoover flew his routine in an ex-navy T-28B Trainer. Ray Hughes, who has a letter of authorization in the aircraft, videotaped from the back seat. Here is the account of the flight as filed and described in Forever Flying:
Prior to takeoff, the engine was warmed up until the oil temperature and pressure were in the green. The engine run-up and magneto check were normal without a drop in rpm. . . .The engine operation was normal through a series of maneuvers. . .Two loops and one-half of a Cuban eight were performed. Upon recovering from this maneuver, the Chip warning red light illuminated, indicating a detection of metal in the oil system. This warrants landing the airplane as soon as possible.
Immediately following the illumination of the Chip light, the propeller governor control failed to hold the engine and propeller rpm, causing an excessive overspeed condition. This resulted in an increase on the oil temperature gauge and decrease in oil pressure. The engine was kept running intermittently by constantly manipulating the engine controls, throttle, mixture, and propeller lever, as well as the engine cooling flaps. Each time the engine would stop running or backfire, an adjustment was made to get it running again. When the engine was running it felt as if it would shake the airplane apart. The airplane was headed on a straight line to the Torrance airport immediately after the Chip warning light came on.
The control tower was advised of the Mayday with a request for a straight-in approach. The T-28B was landed without power on the end of the runway 29. Right at touchdown, the engine froze, shaking the airplane so severely so as to break the fittings, attach points to the fuselage to the wings, and twist the engine from its mount. The bolts holding the engine mounts were sheared and the engine twisted the fuselage.

The Hearing

Hoover brought his case before the Administrative Law Judge William R. Mullins. Apparently, "the FAA had hired more doctors to support its case, none of whom had personally examined Hoover" (AOPA, 1994). The judge had to determine whom to believe. Apparently, "there was plenty of medical evidence on both sides (AOPA, 1994). "Judge Mullin decided to believe Hoover's doctors over the FAA doctors. Mullins ordered the FAA to return the medical certificate" (AOPA, 1994). The FAA refused and appealed it to the NTSB five-panel board. The board overturned the judges ruling. Bailey appealed the case on behalf of Hoover all the way up to the Supreme Court and lost. Yodice pointed out that "it is hard to fault the failure of those appeals, because the scope of review in those courts is so narrow that the courts are virtually compelled to uphold the administrative agencies."

No Defeat

Bob Hoover, not one to give up his soul-burning desire to fly (and source of income), simply went Down Under to continue flying. The director of aviation medicine for the Australian CAA was Rob Liddell, one of Hoover's friends. He suggested that Hoover Take an Australian First Class Medical from Dr. Larry Marinelli. Hoover passed the test. Hoover then went on to take the commercial written exam and flight check. He passed with flying colors. He was given a first-class commercial airline pilot rating, meaning, he could fly anywhere in the world besides the United States. Even though Bob could fly Down Under, he still wanted to be able to fly in the United States. And even though many people thought that he should give up the fight, Bob continued.

With the urging of Rob Liddell, Hoover met with Federal Air Surgeon Dr. Jon Jordan face to face. Hoover agreed to pursue his rights without further legal representation and to submit to even more tests, which would personally be reviewed by Dr. Jordan. The reports again were in Bob's favor but Jordan informed Hoover that he still would not get his medical back, but the results would be sent to an independent consultants. At the EAA Fly In in Oshkosh in July of 1995, FAA David Hison felt the heat when he told the inquiring crowd that Bob's test results were being reviewed by independent consultants. Bob Hoover is sure that it was the "thousands of letters and repeated complaints" that caused Jon Jordan and the FAA to change their decision and reinstate Hoover's medical.

It was on Wednesday, October 18, 1995 that the FAA submitted a Statement on Bob Hoover, which read:

The results of new tests conducted this summer and evaluated by outside medical specialists have led the FAA to conclude that Mr. Hoover's condition has stabilized. In light of this, it is appropriate to grant Mr. Hoover a restricted second-class medical certificate that will enable him to resume his air show performances, but under more medical scrutiny than would be required of an airman with an unrestricted second-class medical certificate.

Hoover's Arguments

On three different occasions, Hoover was examined and found fit to fly by the examining doctors. These doctors in all cases were doctors chosen by the FAA to do the exams. Only one dissenting opinion was found from a doctor who personally examined Hoover on his fitness to fly. This was from Dr. Elliot, a neuropsychologist, who participated in the first rounds of Hoover's examinations. The rest of the dissenting opinions were from doctors who never personally examined Hoover. However, it appeared that Dr. Elliot had some credibility issues as John Yodice, in his article, "A Chapter in the Life of Bob Hoover," points out:
Point 1: Before administering the tests, Dr. Elliot assured Hoover that the testing would not have anything to do with losing his certificate. Dr. Elliot admitted in sworn testimony that he gave Hoover that assurance. Yet Dr. Elliot appeared and testified against Hoover.
Point two: One of the tests administered to Hoover was a version of a psychological test that is marketed for use only as a research tool should not be used for clinical decisions. Dr. Elliot insisted under oath that it was not a research version. Then Bailey produced a fax from the distributor saying that the distributor had never shipped anything but a research version.
Dr. Elliot also examined Hoover using an experimental test being developed in part by Dr. Elliot and being pushed by the FAA. This test has not yet been marketed and should not be used for certification decisions. The law judge wisely excluded this test from evidence.
Point three: At the conclusion of his examination back in October 1992, Dr. Elliot produced a lengthy eight-page, single-space report, followed by pages of test results, in which he *never* said that Hoover was unqualified. He merely recommended that Hoover be referred to a neurologist, which was done. After all of the testing, the psychiatrist in charge of the evaluation (and to whom Dr. Elliot sent his report) said Hoover was qualified. It was not until some time later that, inexplicitly, Dr. Elliot expressed the opinion that Hoover was not qualified.
Point four: Dr. Elliot earns $50,000 a year part-time assessing pilots for the FAA. He charged $1,700 to examine Hoover. In other words, he has an ongoing financial relationship with the FAA.

Incidentally, Dr. Elliot was the only doctor to take the witness stand against Hoover. The Hoover team produced a least two doctors, Dr. Hisely and Dr. Johnson, to testify for Hoover who had personally examined him. The Hoover team also produced an FAA safety inspector, Norb Nester who testified for Hoover on the questionable motives of the two safety inspectors that had originally filed a report against Hoover. Apparently, he had overheard one of them refer to Hoover as "an old bastard" and "that [Hoover] has been around a long time, and he is not what he once was. He has never been violated because of who he is. It's time he has to stand accountable like everyone else" (Hoover and Shaw, 1996). (Norb was fired from the FAA.) Hoover also had fellow aerobatic pilots testify about his condition on the day of the air show at the hearing.

FAA Arguments

I have to admit that I found very few facts during my research as to the FAA's position. The only recurring theme that seemed to be pointed out was that the rumors of the safety inspectors conspiring to write the report to ground Hoover was just that -- rumors. Also resounding is the idea that Hoover was not grounded based on the reports of the inspectors, but based on the reports of the medical exams. I'm fairly certain that there was some sort of hard medical evidence suggesting that Hoover had scored low on some of the medical exams, but I was unable to find that evidence. In defending the time it took for the inspectors to write the reports, FAA's Anthony Broderick told Avweb.com "I think the point is that it wasn't viewed as something of high enough priority to bump the other work that the inspectors were doing, and that's what the initial delay was."

A Step in the Right Direction

The Hoover Case certainly brought to light the awesome power that the FAA and safety inspectors have to use at their discretion against individual pilots. Because of this case, a General Accounting Office study was done on the FAA's use of emergency revocation of certificates. They found that from 1990 to 1997 the percentage of emergency actions increased from 10% of total certificate actions to an average of 20%. They also pointed out that 86% of the time, the FAA decision to revoke the certificate is held up on appeal. The results of the GAO study were used to introduce the Hoover Bill, which has now become law. Under the Hoover Bill, pilots now have 48 hours to appeal an FAA emergency certificate revocation to the NTSB. The NTSB has five days after such an appeal to consider if the revocation is an emergency. They then have 60 days to finally dispose of the underlying certificate suspension or revocation (AOPA, 2000).
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Re: FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)1

M6RV6 wrote:Mr Hoover version compared to the FAA's, And we know as the FAA is part of the Government that they never would undertake anything slight of hand! :^o


Yes, yes. We all know that the government does nothing right and lies about everything while individuals have never lied nor even shaded the truth when representing their side of the story.

But I'm confused. Why did you post someones term paper? Or did this "term paper" itself get plagiarized from somewhere else?

http://www.collegetermpapers.com/TermPa ... view.shtml
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Re: FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)1

Right or wrong anyone who has never had an issue with a govt entity or official in where they understand guilty until proven innocent can not comprehend the feeling or the frustration.
I will even concur that there are many many still left fortunately that do not have I'll intent toward citizens.
That's getting fewer by the day. Many have a complex and swell up like a toad because they have authority over us less intelligent indigents.
Regardless of right or wrong. Law ornno law. Very few if any have the funds much less the time to right a wrong done to you by any govt related acronym. If they want you, they'll win. Period.
Unfortunately that is where the fine line comes in on when to give in or stand up.
A random "ramp" check from a well demeanored inspector is definetly not worth stirring the pot anymore to me.
You have a suspicion they're out for you... Better watch every single move and be smart as possible.
Usually you give them everything they need to hang you.
I will not deal with them for any reason for anything beyond what were talking about here without an attorney.
They WILL straight out lie to you and use intimidation to get you to hang yourself.
Regardless of what any govt lover tells you.

Reminds me of that ole song , I fought the law and the law won.
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Re: FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)1

55wagon wrote:You have a suspicion they're out for you... Better watch every single move and be smart as possible.


Yeah, that's good advice regardless of whether it's the FAA, Enron, Bernie Madolf or your crazy neighbor.
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Re: FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)1

rw2 wrote:
M6RV6 wrote:Mr Hoover version compared to the FAA's, And we know as the FAA is part of the Government that they never would undertake anything slight of hand! :^o


Yes, yes. We all know that the government does nothing right and lies about everything while individuals have never lied nor even shaded the truth when representing their side of the story.

But I'm confused. Why did you post someones term paper? Or did this "term paper" itself get plagiarized from somewhere else?

http://www.collegetermpapers.com/TermPa ... view.shtml


RW2
No I did not state that the We all know that the government does nothing right and lies about everything!! Your putting words in my mouth!!
But I do believe that sometimes they do, just as individuals do also!!
The nations biggest lies in 2013, top 9 out of 10 are the government employees!!
I took a portion of a thesis on case law, not a term paper! (at least I thought it was, I can not find it again!!) #-o
I was very mistaken on how Bob Hoover lost his medical!! :oops:
I was one of many who had no idea it took the FAA over 2 months to notify him about taking his medical!! They told him to give it up and he did!! his mistake!! #-o
Reading what the FAA reported, and what else I have read on his circumstances (about 20 minutes of research on the net!!) I thought that this portion just showed a different perspective on the same issue!!
You and I both know that you and I will agree on not much!! You swing far to one side in your arguments and I am about as for the other way as I can get and still stay out of Jail!.

I did not open this up to get in an argument with anyone!! Especially you. Though I think if we were talking about a potato we would disagree on how to say it!! :mrgreen:

I have a direct involvement with getting arrested by a LEO while I was on the phone with the FAA and NTSB after an accident!
And it cost me many $1000's to have them push it right up to the day before the criminal trial for them to drop it!! :evil: And this would have made it impossible for me to go into Canada, which I usually do AT LEAST twice a year!
So I have some very disagreeable thoughts and experiences about just going along with the LEO, Did I cause the problem, Why yes I did I wrecked my airplane!! :shock:
This is not all that is involved but more than what I really want to put on here!
What would you have done? Talking to the FAA and NTSB and have a local city LEO start raising hell with you????
I am really looking for some case law on the actions of a LEO on an accident not a crime!! [-o<
I'm trying to find out all I can about the subject and this BCP forum is just one of the many ways to get some thoughts, real answers and a bunch of BS along the way! :wink:
I was hoping that someone along the way might even be able to point me to a court action or case that might help me!! [-o<
I would maybe hope with your talent of coming up with a different view that maybe I could get you to do a little research on this FOR ANOTHER BCP'r WHO HAPPENS TO HAVE WORE OUT A MUALE??

I'm glad Hoover miraculously recovered his health after he went south and passed all their exams and then came back to the FAA and then miraculously passed theirs as well!! :o 1 OF THE FOREMOST PILOTS TO EVER GET IN AN AIRCRAFT! =D>
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Re: FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)1

M6RV6 wrote:No I did not state that the We all know that the government does nothing right and lies about everything!! Your putting words in my mouth!!


Sure, not literally. And I apologize for putting words in your mouth. I felt like that's what you were saying because you asked for citations and experiences and seemed to be ignoring those that didn't fit your notion. However! I see below that I was mistaken. So, great!

M6RV6 wrote:But I do believe that sometimes they do, just as individuals do also!!


Absolutely.

M6RV6 wrote:I took a portion of a thesis on case law, not a term paper! (at least I thought it was, I can not find it again!!) #-o


Yeah, that's why I was asking. I could only find the reference I linked when I searched.

M6RV6 wrote:I was very mistaken on how Bob Hoover lost his medical!! :oops:


Ok, then the rest is water under the bridge...

M6RV6 wrote:I did not open this up to get in an argument with anyone!! Especially you. Though I think if we were talking about a potato we would disagree on how to say it!! :mrgreen:


The correct pronunciation is 'papa'. :lol:

M6RV6 wrote:I have a direct involvement with getting arrested by a LEO while I was on the phone with the FAA and NTSB after an accident! And it cost me many $1000's to have them push it right up to the day before the criminal trial for them to drop it!! :evil: And this would have made it impossible for me to go into Canada, which I usually do AT LEAST twice a year!
So I have some very disagreeable thoughts and experiences about just going along with the LEO, Did I cause the problem, Why yes I did I wrecked my airplane!! :shock:


Yeah, absolutely I can understand why that would color ones world view. I look around and see corporations and individuals screwing things up and am probably similarly colored. Though, I suspect over beers you'd find me to be much more moderate than you expect. Just on BCP I seem to be one of the few voices acknowledging the need to even have a government, so that makes me look more extreme.

M6RV6 wrote:I would maybe hope with your talent of coming up with a different view that maybe I could get you to do a little research on this FOR ANOTHER BCP'r WHO HAPPENS TO HAVE WORE OUT A MUALE??


If you're willing to at least consider my viewpoint, I'm happy to provide it. We don't have to agree. That would make the world boring. :D
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Re: FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)1

rw2 wrote:
M6RV6 wrote:No I did not state that the We all know that the government does nothing right and lies about everything!! Your putting words in my mouth!!


Sure, not literally. And I apologize for putting words in your mouth. I felt like that's what you were saying because you asked for citations and experiences and seemed to be ignoring those that didn't fit your notion. However! I see below that I was mistaken. So, great!

M6RV6 wrote:But I do believe that sometimes they do, just as individuals do also!!


Absolutely.

M6RV6 wrote:I took a portion of a thesis on case law, not a term paper! (at least I thought it was, I can not find it again!!) #-o


Yeah, that's why I was asking. I could only find the reference I linked when I searched.

M6RV6 wrote:I was very mistaken on how Bob Hoover lost his medical!! :oops:


Ok, then the rest is water under the bridge...

M6RV6 wrote:I did not open this up to get in an argument with anyone!! Especially you. Though I think if we were talking about a potato we would disagree on how to say it!! :mrgreen:


The correct pronunciation is 'papa'. :lol:

M6RV6 wrote:I have a direct involvement with getting arrested by a LEO while I was on the phone with the FAA and NTSB after an accident! And it cost me many $1000's to have them push it right up to the day before the criminal trial for them to drop it!! :evil: And this would have made it impossible for me to go into Canada, which I usually do AT LEAST twice a year!
So I have some very disagreeable thoughts and experiences about just going along with the LEO, Did I cause the problem, Why yes I did I wrecked my airplane!! :shock:


Yeah, absolutely I can understand why that would color ones world view. I look around and see corporations and individuals screwing things up and am probably similarly colored. Though, I suspect over beers you'd find me to be much more moderate than you expect. Just on BCP I seem to be one of the few voices acknowledging the need to even have a government, so that makes me look more extreme.

M6RV6 wrote:I would maybe hope with your talent of coming up with a different view that maybe I could get you to do a little research on this FOR ANOTHER BCP'r WHO HAPPENS TO HAVE WORE OUT A MUALE??


If you're willing to at least consider my viewpoint, I'm happy to provide it. We don't have to agree. That would make the world boring. :D

I don't do spirits anymore, but I'm sure we could get through a cup of coffee??
Thanks
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Re: FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)1

M6RV6 wrote:I don't do spirits anymore, but I'm sure we could get through a cup of coffee??
Thanks


Perhaps expectedly, given how we got to this point, I can't do coffee. :lol:

I shall have a fizzy water with lime if we're gonna teetotal this one. :-)
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Re: FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)1

rw2 wrote:
M6RV6 wrote:I don't do spirits anymore, but I'm sure we could get through a cup of coffee??
Thanks


Perhaps expectedly, given how we got to this point, I can't do coffee. :lol:

I shall have a fizzy water with lime if we're gonna teetotal this one. :-)

LMAO =D>
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Re: FAR 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)1

Not true about the copying a certificate. If you request records from OKC you will get copies of everything. It's only illegal if it's copied for the purpose of using it as a certificate in place of the original. I had the local FSDO request copies of Registration, 337's, etc. when applying for an AW Cert. I don't know why since they have access to all this info on their own computers.
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