once&futr_alaskaflyer wrote:

Bonanza Man wrote:

once&futr_alaskaflyer wrote:14. Aircraft, Motor-Driven Vehicles, Lights

* It is illegal to use aircraft for spotting game 72 hours prior to and during the hunting season. A licensee cannot hunt the same day they are airborne over their hunting unit with the exception of their scheduled passenger airline flight. It is illegal to drive, concentrate, rally, raise, stir up, spot or disturb game with aircraft.

That doesn't sound like a 72 hour throttle to hunting rule to me. That's 72 hours after I am up spotting game. And this appears to only affect big game. The passage I copied was from upland game. As I read the reg I can fly in one day and hunt big game the next, as long as I didn't use my plane to spot game. And then only if I am airborne over the same unit. So if I didn't fly over my hunting unit I can step out of the plane and go hunting.

Yeah, how it is written indicated to me that spotting game from the air is illegal period, beginning 72 hours before the hunting season to the end of hunting season.

And then the typical "same day airborne" restriction in the same game unit as you say.

I wouldn't go quite that far. You can spot game any time you want, but once you do you then are on the clock for 72 hours. Here in Montana our rule for game spotting is you can't hunt until the next day and there are no other rules with regard to airplanes.

once&futr_alaskaflyer wrote:

14. Aircraft, Motor-Driven Vehicles, Lights

* It is illegal to use aircraft for spotting game 72 hours prior to and during the hunting season. A licensee cannot hunt the same day they are airborne over their hunting unit with the exception of their scheduled passenger airline flight. It is illegal to drive, concentrate, rally, raise, stir up, spot or disturb game with aircraft.

Yeah, how it is written indicated to me that spotting game from the air is illegal period, beginning 72 hours before the hunting season to the end of hunting season.

And then the typical "same day airborne" restriction in the same game unit as you say.

Bonanza Man wrote:I wouldn't go quite that far.

I would. Seems pretty clear to me. See highlighted portions above.

I agree with Once and Future. That statute is quite clear, in fact, unlike some I've read. It says you can't spot game with an airplane, starting 72 hours before the hunting season starts, till after it's over. Also, you can't have flown (except in an airliner) the same day you hunt. There is NO ambiguity in that one.

As to BLM, BM--that's what I said. BLM lands GENERALLY are in "caretaker" status. BLM was the agency created to caretake federal lands until they were disposed of, either to states, to private parties or to other federal agencies. BLM never had an "organic act" till a few years ago, and thus were not authorized (technically, at least, though it happened) to actually "manage" CONSERVATION UNITS, only "unallocated federal lands".

Since BLM has an organic act, they are now authorized to manage conservation units, such as the Upper Missouri Breaks NM. When unallocated federal land is converted into a conservation unit, such as was the case in that unit, a public process is required, and a set of SPECIFIC regulations and policies is developed for that unit.

That was my point...If the land is unallocated federal land, managed by BLM, rules are few and far between.

On the other hand, if that land is now part of a Monument for example, managed by BLM, you can bet it WILL have a number of regulations and policies, established through the public process.

MTV

mtv wrote:I agree with Once and Future. That statute is quite clear, in fact, unlike some I've read. It says you can't spot game with an airplane, starting 72 hours before the hunting season starts, till after it's over. Also, you can't have flown (except in an airliner) the same day you hunt. There is NO ambiguity in that one.


MTV

FWIW the legal mechanism is a "governor's proclamation" which carries the same force as regulation in fish and game matters in ND. Apparently. I now retire the field since we are now talking about an activitiy I am not likely to do in a state I am never likely to live in or even visit for very long

Sorry if you guys didn't like what I was told or who told me, but If I ever get harrassed for landing on one of these strips that is my story and I am sticking to it!

once&futr_alaskaflyer wrote:

once&futr_alaskaflyer wrote:

14. Aircraft, Motor-Driven Vehicles, Lights

* It is illegal to use aircraft for spotting game 72 hours prior to and during the hunting season. A licensee cannot hunt the same day they are airborne over their hunting unit with the exception of their scheduled passenger airline flight. It is illegal to drive, concentrate, rally, raise, stir up, spot or disturb game with aircraft.

Yeah, how it is written indicated to me that spotting game from the air is illegal period, beginning 72 hours before the hunting season to the end of hunting season.

And then the typical "same day airborne" restriction in the same game unit as you say.

Bonanza Man wrote:I wouldn't go quite that far.

I would. Seems pretty clear to me. See highlighted portions above.

Yep, you're right. I put a mental comma in there and it changed the whole meaning.

A "mental comma"... I like it

I'll have to find a place to use that one soon.

MTV

This is an email that I sent to the head of the USFS, I never received a response to it. He was very intimidating with his power and I was actually read my rights at informal meeting in which he insisted I attend. I should have had a lawyer with me but I answered his questions the best I could. I left the meeting and started digging for answers. I suspect the reason he would not respond to my last email is that I was right but I don't know for sure. He had taken the CFR's and left information out and I think he new what he had done was wrong. I saved all his emails!



Mr. ________,
I do not plan to give up landing on public land (National Forest Service) if it is my right to do so. I would like to receive your citation for what you believe I have done wrong so that I may go forward with my case. I counted on the freedom that I have been able to enjoy up to this point using my airplane to transport my family and myself to the great outdoors. I am upset that more and more places are being closed off to the public, after all these are public lands for the public to enjoy. I am a good steward and pick up garbage wherever I go. I wish I could say the same about the people using the roads into the ____________ area but that is another subject. I went through what you cited and put some notes in, I also included a few at the end that you left out.

Regards,


________________________________________________________
§ 261.56 Use of vehicles off National Forest System roads.
When provided by an order, it is prohibited to possess or use a vehicle off National Forest System roads.
You forgot the part that says (when provided by an order)
§ 261.15 Use of vehicles off roads.
It is prohibited to operate any vehicle off National Forest System, State or County roads:
(a) Without a valid license as required by State law.
(b) Without an operable braking system.
(c) From one-half hour after sunset to one-half hour before sunrise unless equipped with working head and tail lights.
(d) In violation of any applicable noise emission standard established by any Federal or State agency.
(e) While under the influence of alcohol or other drug;
(f) Creating excessive or unusual smoke;
(g) Carelessly, recklessly, or without regard for the safety of any person, or in a manner that endangers, or is likely to endanger, any person or property.
(h) In a manner which damages or unreasonably disturbs the land, wildlife, or vegetative resources.
(i) In violation of State law established for vehicles used off roads
I do not see how (h) applies to gravel bars which change every time there are heavy rains. Places are below the high flood marks.

§ 261.9 Property.
The following are prohibited:
(a)Damaging any natural feature or other property of the United States

I don’t think so, moving a big rock or drift would which are not permanent by nature.

§ 261.10 Occupancy and use.
The following are prohibited:
(a) Constructing, placing, or maintaining any kind of road, trail, structure, fence, enclosure, communications equipment, or other improvement on National Forest System lands or facilities without a special use authorization, contract, or approved operating plan, unless such authorization, contract, or operating plan is waived pursuant to §251.50(e) of this chapter.
(k) Use or occupancy of National Forest System land or facilities without special-use authorization when such authorization is required.

I have never constructed or maintained. All natural, that is what I like,
Being out in nature in its unimproved beauty.


§ 261.1a Special use authorizations, contracts and operating plans.
The Chief, each Regional Forester, each Forest Supervisor, and each District Ranger or equivalent officer may issue special-use authorizations, award contracts, or approve operating plans authorizing the occupancy or use of a road, trail, area, river, lake, or other part of the National Forest System in accordance with authority which is delegated elsewhere in this chapter or in the Forest Service Manual. These Forest Officers may permit in the authorizing document or approved plan an act or omission that would otherwise be a violation of a subpart A or subpart C regulation or a subpart B order. In authorizing such uses, the Forest Officer may place such conditions on the authorization as that officer considers necessary for the protection or administration of the National Forest System, or for the promotion of public health, safety, or welfare.
I don’t think I need authorization, since I see no regulation I am actually breaking.

HERE ARE A FEW YOU DID NOT INCLUDE. Notice that (A) aircraft is first on the list (exempted).

261.13 Motor vehicle use.
After National Forest System roads, National Forest System trails, and areas on National Forest System lands have been designated pursuant to 36 CFR 212.51 on an administrative unit or a Ranger District of the National Forest System, and these designations have been identified on a motor vehicle use map, it is prohibited to possess or operate a motor vehicle on National Forest System lands in that administrative unit or Ranger District other than in accordance with those designations, provided that the following vehicles and uses are exempted from this prohibition:
(a) Aircraft;
(b) Watercraft;
(c) Over-snow vehicles;
(d) Limited administrative use by the Forest Service;
(e) Use of any fire, military, emergency, or law enforcement vehicle for emergency purposes;
(f) Authorized use of any combat or combat support vehicle for national defense purposes;
(g) Law enforcement response to violations of law, including pursuit;
(h) Motor vehicle use that is specifically authorized under a written authorization issued under Federal law or regulations; and
(i) Use of a road or trail that is authorized by a legally documented right-of-way held by a State, county, or other local public road authority.
Again note that number 1 on the list is aircraft and it is exempt.
[70 FR 68291, Nov. 9, 2005]
§ 212.51 Designation of roads, trails, and areas.
(a) General. Motor vehicle use on National Forest System roads, on National Forest System trails, and in areas on National Forest System lands shall be designated by vehicle class and, if appropriate, by time of year by the responsible official on administrative units or Ranger Districts of the National Forest System, provided that the following vehicles and uses are exempted from these designations:
(1) Aircraft;
(2) Watercraft;
(3) Over-snow vehicles (see §212.81);
(4) Limited administrative use by the Forest Service;
(5) Use of any fire, military, emergency, or law enforcement vehicle for emergency purposes;
(6) Authorized use of any combat or combat support vehicle for national defense purposes;
(7) Law enforcement response to violations of law, including pursuit; and
(8) Motor vehicle use that is specifically authorized under a written authorization issued under Federal law or regulations.
(b) Motor vehicle use for dispersed camping or big game retrieval. In designating routes, the responsible official may include in the designation the limited use of motor vehicles within a specified distance of certain designated routes, and if appropriate within specified time periods, solely for the purposes of dispersed camping or retrieval of a downed big game animal by an individual who has legally taken that animal.


I post this in my airplane when I land off airport in N.F., I copy the most current of the CFR 261.13 with the date off the internet and hang it in the window.

Mauleguy, thanks for posting that. Keep up the fight