Little help from you 7GCBC owners 1994 and up 160hp version or even the High Country 180 version.

I am CFI wanting an all around good plane for; spin training, light acro, light short field takeoff and landing training(backcounty), 150-200nm x-country plane. I feel the 7GCBC will be the best bet with just me in it. Weight and balance is fine with me just in it too. The problem is when I add a passenger, weights from 220 and fuel down to 25 gallons I seem to get nothing but very very aft of the cg envelope. That is a big concern and wondering what other tailwheels will perform what I want but have a better cg load.
I could get a 180hp Super D(8KCAB) but then I lose the short field performance but would make a great spin, acro and x-country plane.
So questions, are my calculation pretty on point with 7GCBC and my assumptions of the Super D correct? Any other plane suggestions that meet my original mission?

Being in Atlanta, GA area I will not really come close to some true backcountry strips . Does any have any backcountry or short strip flying that have done in a 8KCAB?

Thanks

I owned and flew a 7GCBC for several years -- literally flew it all over the country. As you said it's a great all-round airplane for one person, but useful load is very limiting if you want to bring someone along.

I did take several camping trips in it with my daughter when she was little, but pretty quickly realized I needed more useful load.

Edit: I see now that you weren't asking about backcountry camping, just backcountry instruction. A 7GCBC should be fine for that. It's a fun plane to fly.

Hard to beat a 7GCBC.. They fly fine in the configuration you're speaking of but yes don't look so great on paper.

Oregon180/ASA thanks,

Yeah I am really loving the 7GCBC but man it will be tail heavy for acro/spin training. If I wanted to do normal category, 2 up flying is just fine.

I am thinking with me being in Atlanta area and not on the West then I could probably get away with an 8KCAB, since most of the "short fields" here are no shorter than 1500 and we are not in the mountains. So at most HOT and HEAVY but not HIGH . The 8KCAB will hit those fields just fine. I would not have to worry about weight and balance issue based on my calculations.

My 150hp 7ECA has a useful load of 526. Flaps are highly overrated

rowdog_14 wrote:Oregon180/ASA thanks,

Yeah I am really loving the 7GCBC but man it will be tail heavy for acro/spin training. If I wanted to do normal category, 2 up flying is just fine.

I am thinking with me being in Atlanta area and not on the West then I could probably get away with an 8KCAB, since most of the "short fields" here are no shorter than 1500 and we are not in the mountains. So at most HOT and HEAVY but not HIGH . The 8KCAB will hit those fields just fine. I would not have to worry about weight and balance issue based on my calculations.

I fly out of Huntsville and agree 100% with your assessment.

I only have one small area for a playground, and it’s not short. Everything else is on the sectional.

I can’t find good fields here to land among all the trees.

You do NOT want to be aft CG in spins. No 7GCBC I’ve ever met had a flexible enough weight and balance to do all of what you’re suggesting.

MTV

The KCAB and GCBC use different airfoils and wing lengths (in addition to the flaps). If you aren’t entirely familiar with the differences, go to CP Aviation in Santa Paula (or some other knowledgeable outfit with both types) and fly them back to back doing your proposed missions. I think that will make up your mind on what’s the best fit.

Moving the battery to rhe firewall helps the GCBC by moving weight ahead, as well as dumping some weight. I really liked the one i had.

Off and on over the years I've flown Citabria, Decathlon, Scout, Cub, Champ, 170B, 180, L-19, Pawnee and if side by side seating it hadn't been on my "wish list" I would most likely have purchased a Scout they win the "value for dollars" category in my opinion.

Mapleflt wrote:Off and on over the years I've flown Citabria, Decathlon, Scout, Cub, Champ, 170B, 180, L-19, Pawnee and if side by side seating it hadn't been on my "wish list" I would most likely have purchased a Scout they win the "value for dollars" category in my opinion.

I agree, but no acro with a scout and he'd like to do light acro.

A1Skinner wrote:

Mapleflt wrote:Off and on over the years I've flown Citabria, Decathlon, Scout, Cub, Champ, 170B, 180, L-19, Pawnee and if side by side seating it hadn't been on my "wish list" I would most likely have purchased a Scout they win the "value for dollars" category in my opinion.

I agree, but no acro with a scout and he'd like to do light acro.

Very true, I'll go back under my rock sorry

Mapleflt wrote:

A1Skinner wrote:

Mapleflt wrote:Off and on over the years I've flown Citabria, Decathlon, Scout, Cub, Champ, 170B, 180, L-19, Pawnee and if side by side seating it hadn't been on my "wish list" I would most likely have purchased a Scout they win the "value for dollars" category in my opinion.

I agree, but no acro with a scout and he'd like to do light acro.

Very true, I'll go back under my rock sorry

Haha. No don't do that Bryce. I find the 7GCBC to be right up there with the Scout. Just less useful load.

But that’s the problem: he’s trying to do too much with one airplane.

Decide what your priorities are, THEN see how far down the list one plane can get you.

MTV

OK, here's my feedback... When I was looking around to get my tailwheel endorsement, I researched the entire Citabria line in detail. I found that the only one I could legally fly – even with a very light-weight (145-lb female) instructor – was a 7ECA. I realize that I'm bigger than the average guy (275), but the Decathlons that were available for training locally would have been over GW (didn't bother looking at CG) even with that 145-lb CFI flying with me – before adding ANY fuel.

The 7GCBC and 7KCAB have the same max gross weight as the 7ECA, but their heavier engines mean they carry less useful load. And flaps are marginally heavier, making the situation worse. To make matters worse, the 145-lb CFI was under contract to only instruct with her company, and they only offered the Decathlons for tailwheel training.

So I had to find a plane that could handle me (275) plus my CFI (200) plus at least a couple of hours worth of fuel (10-12 gallons). I needed at least 535 lbs of useful load. Doesn't sound too ridiculous, does it? But I would not find ANY 7GCBCs or 7KCABs that could meed that UL criteria. All of them were heavier than 1115 lbs empty weight!

I found that only 7ECAs could meet my useful load criteria. And even then, if they were O-235 powered, they needed to have been upgraded to the factory metal wings to meet the UL requirement. Those factory metal wings increase the GW from 1650 to 1750. Sounds great so far, but they also weigh about 50 lbs more than the wood-spar wings. And since the O-235 weighs about 30 lbs more than the O-200, you really only get about 20-25 lb useful load increase. (Plus an end to the annual AD inspection of the wooden spar, of course.)

I lucked into finding an O-200 powered, wood spar 7ECA (1965 model) only 100 miles from my home airport. It had a claimed EW of 1027 lbs (confirmed when my mechanic did a new W&B as part of the pre-buy deal), and a UL of 623 lbs. It had 39 gallon wing tanks (38 usable) for fantastic range when solo. Flying with my CFI, I only carried 1/2 fuel, but that 19 gallons was still good for at least 2.5 hours training flights, with plenty of reserve.

Yeah, with only 100 HP it was slow (92-95 mph at 2500 rpm, 3000 ft, in our 95º temps). And yeah, in those same conditions it climbed like a homesick manhole cover (maybe 250-300 fpm at gross wt). But it was a tailwheel plane, and got me my endorsement ,and a few years of fun flying. And I sold it 3 years later for exactly what I paid for it.

JP256 wrote:OK, here's my feedback... When I was looking around to get my tailwheel endorsement, I researched the entire Citabria line in detail. I found that the only one I could legally fly – even with a very light-weight (145-lb female) instructor – was a 7ECA. I realize that I'm bigger than the average guy (275), but the Decathlons that were available for training locally would have been over GW (didn't bother looking at CG) even with that 145-lb CFI flying with me – before adding ANY fuel.

The 7GCBC and 7KCAB have the same max gross weight as the 7ECA, but their heavier engines mean they carry less useful load. And flaps are marginally heavier, making the situation worse. To make matters worse, the 145-lb CFI was under contract to only instruct with her company, and they only offered the Decathlons for tailwheel training.

So I had to find a plane that could handle me (275) plus my CFI (200) plus at least a couple of hours worth of fuel (10-12 gallons). I needed at least 535 lbs of useful load. Doesn't sound too ridiculous, does it? But I would not find ANY 7GCBCs or 7KCABs that could meed that UL criteria. All of them were heavier than 1115 lbs empty weight!

I found that only 7ECAs could meet my useful load criteria. And even then, if they were O-235 powered, they needed to have been upgraded to the factory metal wings to meet the UL requirement. Those factory metal wings increase the GW from 1650 to 1750. Sounds great so far, but they also weigh about 50 lbs more than the wood-spar wings. And since the O-235 weighs about 30 lbs more than the O-200, you really only get about 20-25 lb useful load increase. (Plus an end to the annual AD inspection of the wooden spar, of course.)

I lucked into finding an O-200 powered, wood spar 7ECA (1965 model) only 100 miles from my home airport. It had a claimed EW of 1027 lbs (confirmed when my mechanic did a new W&B as part of the pre-buy deal), and a UL of 623 lbs. It had 39 gallon wing tanks (38 usable) for fantastic range when solo. Flying with my CFI, I only carried 1/2 fuel, but that 19 gallons was still good for at least 2.5 hours training flights, with plenty of reserve.

Yeah, with only 100 HP it was slow (92-95 mph at 2500 rpm, 3000 ft, in our 95º temps). And yeah, in those same conditions it climbed like a homesick manhole cover (maybe 250-300 fpm at gross wt). But it was a tailwheel plane, and got me my endorsement ,and a few years of fun flying. And I sold it 3 years later for exactly what I paid for it.

Yes, I’ve flown 7GC Champs that were similar. Not power houses, but actually had better useful than the Citabrias. All depends on your mission, but you need to plan a reasonable mission.

MTV

My 2 cents, rowdog, is that you are missing a great opportunity by not settling on the lower powered, higher useful load trainer as JP 256 with 100 hp Citabria and MTV with 90 hp Super Cub have pointed out. In my opinion the safe maneuvering flight techniques training value of low horsepower, what the manufacturer considered normal In the past, exceeds the training value of spins and acrobatics.

Training to avoid the razors edge of stall/spin has value, I think. I also value spin and acrobatics training, but no more than could be obtained short term in a rental with an instructor who specialised in that. Stall/spin at low altitude can only be mitigated by the former. Working with low power can best train for that at your common density altitude.

Thanks everyone for all the feedback! Yes, I am asking a lot out of one plane ...I will have to narrow it down. Probably take out acro for now, save that for another day .

I had a 150hp 8KCAB for exactly the things you wanted to do- light acro, backcountry capable, decent cruise. I had 8.50s on it and went almost anywhere in the Sierras and Rockies that I wanted. Just learn to fly it a little different with the symmetrical wing and no flaps. Kept light and it was a blast, even at regular 10k DA here in Colorado Springs. Only got rid of it because I needed four seats. Super D can overcome a lot with horsepower.

rowdog_14 wrote:Thanks everyone for all the feedback! Yes, I am asking a lot out of one plane ...I will have to narrow it down. Probably take out acro for now, save that for another day .

Yep, take acro and spins out and get a Scout or Husky. Add spins and light acro and get a Decathalon. You have a few great airplanes wiTh these choices you just have to decide what the mission is going to be.

Kurt