First I want to say I’m appreciative of all the discussion had on this forum, it’s been a great resource for quite awhile.
I bought my latest airplane, a Cessna 182A, in Idaho and have really enjoyed flying the backcountry across our nation like the Gila, Ozarks and of course Idaho. The joy and thrill it brings is worth the price, but it can certainly be stressful at times.

I’ve owned 3 airplanes over the course of the past 8 years, so I’m still relatively green when it comes to aircraft ownership, but I’ve been very lucky to have had A&Ps / IAs on my field to do owner assisted annuals and other maintenance as needed. Time has caught up to them, and my previous IA has aged out of doing annuals for the most part so I had to search for a shop for the first time. I’ve learned a lot and have become a better, safer pilot thanks to being so closely involved in my maintenance, so it’s hard to drop it off somewhere and just walk away.

That said, I’m having to level set and figure out what’s normal and what’s not as I work with a new shop.
It’s been in the shop for 4 weeks at this point, and it took 2 weeks just to get the initial squawk list. Of course it’s going to be one of the most expensive annuals I’ve ever had and I expected that for a variety of reasons. However, going on week 4 now with no progress since the initial inspection I’m starting to wonder if this is typical for most shops. At $125/Hr labor rate, I expected better communication and consistent progress.

2 new Superior cylinders (fingers crossed they don't chatter) are going on after failing to resurrect them last annual by honing the valves and replacing the rotocoils. After dropping off the cylinders, a week later I called and was told they don’t know when they will get to it.

I’m looking at over $8k in labor already with the annual flat rate of $2,500. Since my $5k deposit, no work has been done.
Is this unusual for a larger repair station? Or am I wrong to expect a bit more expediency, almost surpassing a month in the annual now?

I have about 650 hours on my overhaul, so I’m very anxious to get the cylinder R&R done to know if my bill is going to be $55k more expensive than I expected with pitting on my cam.
It’s hard to plan life with the notion of an overhaul looming over you, and they haven’t even completed the inspection so I’m not sure the squawk list is quite complete.

I was told it’s about a 50/50 shot of the cam being pitted in my O-470R that’s mid-life and aged in the teens. The previous owner was a meticulous airline pilot and flew it frequently in the Idaho backcountry, maybe some of you even recognize the bird if you’re from around there.

Thanks for hearing me out!

Not unusual for aircraft needing major repair to sit for weeks at a time waiting on parts, cylinders used to be a 6-8 mo wait. Often engine is wrapped in plastic and pushed out to tie down so work can continue. So if the plane is still in a back corner even if no work is being done be happy. I would not expect to be charged more than a minimal storage fee if no work is being done. Once all the parts show up, now you will have to wait until a space and manpower is available to finish the job. If the shop is caring for working aircraft/pilots expect to be bumped to get them in the air if a problem arises. Don't expect them to call part supplier daily to check on status. It is very east to get spoiled by the old IA that is just doing it for fun. If you want to get on the good side of the shop just stop in and offer to run for parts. That will go a longways in building a good relationship.
DENNY

DENNY wrote:Not unusual for aircraft needing major repair to sit for weeks at a time waiting on parts, cylinders used to be a 6-8 mo wait. Often engine is wrapped in plastic and pushed out to tie down so work can continue. So if the plane is still in a back corner even if no work is being done be happy. I would not expect to be charged more than a minimal storage fee if no work is being done. Once all the parts show up, now you will have to wait until a space and manpower is available to finish the job. If the shop is caring for working aircraft/pilots expect to be bumped to get them in the air if a problem arises. Don't expect them to call part supplier daily to check on status. It is very east to get spoiled by the old IA that is just doing it for fun. If you want to get on the good side of the shop just stop in and offer to run for parts. That will go a longways in building a good relationship.
DENNY

Totally understood if they’re waiting on parts and nothing to do. I maybe didn’t make it clear but I had delivered the cylinders for them. We’re lucky to be close to many suppliers, especially McFarlane which is a 30 minute drive from my home and 15 minutes from my airport.

Most of my annuals have been 1-2 weeks, which is awesome I know, but wasn’t prepared for 4+ weeks when parts aren’t an issue.

First and foremost, do not take this as accusatory. You may have done all the things I'm about to suggest and still obtained unsatisfactory results. Scenarios such as yours are typically brought about by classic miscommunication and/or lack of directive. The inspection is just that, an inspection. Repairs often get rolled in with the inspection phase which is not proper procedure IMO. When the aircraft is brought to the shop for an inspection, an inspection, and ONLY an inspection should be accomplished during the inspection phase. Next step, the shop provides you a list of discrepancies with quotes and ETIC's (estimated time for completion) for each allowing you to sit down and re-enter your decision matrix on how to proceed. It sounds to me that your inspection phase has not been completed prior to the start of the repair and/or maintenance phase. It is indeed true that some timelines will vary due to part availability and or staffing. Having said that, you should still be provided the courtesy of status updates. The "Annual Inspection" is a process. Clear communication is paramount to ensure that your definition and expectations of the process align with your shop.

TR

TR wrote:First and foremost, do not take this as accusatory. You may have done all the things I'm about to suggest and still obtained unsatisfactory results. Scenarios such as yours are typically brought about by classic miscommunication and/or lack of directive. The inspection is just that, an inspection. Repairs often get rolled in with the inspection phase which is not proper procedure IMO. When the aircraft is brought to the shop for an inspection, an inspection, and ONLY an inspection should be accomplished during the inspection phase. Next step, the shop provides you a list of discrepancies with quotes and ETIC's (estimated time for completion) for each allowing you to sit down and re-enter your decision matrix on how to proceed. It sounds to me that your inspection phase has not been completed prior to the start of the repair and/or maintenance phase. It is indeed true that some timelines will vary due to part availability and or staffing. Having said that, you should still be provided the courtesy of status updates. The "Annual Inspection" is a process. Clear communication is paramount to ensure that your definition and expectations of the process align with your shop.

TR

Thanks for the benefit of the doubt, and nice explanation. This is more or less what I had expected going in. Expected time to completion would put me much more at ease, but I did not know that was common and I haven’t been able to get even a rough idea in terms of months or weeks. To your point, yes we had reviewed the squawks and I had even provided new cylinders to get it going sooner.

This is helpful though, and what I was looking for. I was just curious what others experiences are like working with shops, not individuals.

In my experience, 3 planes in 16yrs, I have had poor luck with larger shops, especially when I’m not hands on in the work.

Owner assist small shop is the way, even if you have to fly out or have them come to your hangar

Also always put requirements and any critical communications in a email, or even text. Even after a phone call I’ll send a email thanking them for their time with a quick summary of our conversation.


Another big one, have a pdf of your logs, send them to the shop, after work is complete they provide you a sticker, NEVER let a shop take physical possession of your logs, there is zero credible reason for this

NineThreeKilo wrote:In my experience, 3 planes in 16yrs, I have had poor luck with larger shops, especially when I’m not hands on in the work.

Owner assist small shop is the way, even if you have to fly out or have them come to your hangar

Also always put requirements and any critical communications in a email, or even text. Even after a phone call I’ll send a email thanking them for their time with a quick summary of our conversation.


Another big one, have a pdf of your logs, send them to the shop, after work is complete they provide you a sticker, NEVER let a shop take physical possession of your logs, there is zero credible reason for this

I wasn't sure about logs. Most of my other friends who are owners also hadn't been to a big shop, so I didn't know any better and left the logs with them. Since my past IA typically sat down and went through my logs (especially on the first annual), I figured they would need to as well. To PDF everything would be a lot of work but if I have no choice to continue going to larger shops then I'll just have to get it done I guess.

I'm on the books for a smaller shop with a good reputation for next year, but could not manage it this year since my situation changed and most mechanics have a year long wait list with returning customers and very little room to add new airplanes.

Thanks!

NineThreeKilo wrote:In my experience, 3 planes in 16yrs, I have had poor luck with larger shops, especially when I’m not hands on in the work.

Owner assist small shop is the way, even if you have to fly out or have them come to your hangar

Also always put requirements and any critical communications in a email, or even text. Even after a phone call I’ll send a email thanking them for their time with a quick summary of our conversation.


Another big one, have a pdf of your logs, send them to the shop, after work is complete they provide you a sticker, NEVER let a shop take physical possession of your logs, there is zero credible reason for this

If you only provide a PDF of the aircraft log books that you obviously control how does the signing A&P know the true status of your airplane. This would raise about a million flags for me if I was putting my name and license "on the line".

The relationship between an owner and the maintainer is built on mutual trust, withholding the log books doesn't foster this trust at all.

If you can't trust a maintenance shop with your aircraft logs, why in heaven's name would you trust them to do proper inspections/repairs?

The local shop I use now is a VERY busy place. I consider the folks there to be friends. But, they are BUSY.....So, I plan ahead, give them two months warning, then a month, have everything in order ready for them prior to inspection. I value the relationship I have with these folks, including understanding that sometimes things are going to take a while.

Going to an unknown "big" shop, it's hard to know what's going to happen. Best thing you can do is communicate with them.....ask the basic questions: What's taking long? Can you prioritize this project? Etc. Mechanics and their bosses are humans, and they get surprises dumped on them all the time. Be polite, but find out why the delays.

Now, this may not be the case at all, but: Could it be that previous maintenance that's been done has been an issue, and these folks have put the plane aside because they know it's going to take a lot of their time to get it up to "airworthy" status?

I know nothing about your prior maintenance, but I've seen some "owner maintained" planes that I wouldn't stand under if they were in flight......and I've seen some "owner maintained" planes that were near perfect specimens, with superb maintenance.

Get in touch with the boss of this shop and request a visit. Ask them for an explanation, and express (politely) your concerns.

Good luck!

As a mechanic, if you refuse to leave your logs with me to go through, especially the first time I'm seeing your plane, then I have no interest in doing your work. Also, I'm not sending a sticker with an electronic signature for you to put in your book. You bring the book, I put the sticker in and sign the book. But preferably, I've had the books all along so I can review them. There is just too much liability carried by the signature to not operate this way.

The only reason I can think of that someone might "object" to leaving the log books is if they don't intend to pay the bill, that's a HUGE red flag. No log books equals NO WORK, the technical logs for my airplane live at the shop where it gets maintained, I only carry the J log.

Mapleflt wrote:...the technical logs for my airplane live at the shop where it gets maintained, I only carry the J log.

First time hearing about J(ourney) logs- Google says it's a Canadian thing. Now I'm wondering if there's a US version that I've just never heard of?

To the OP- Some sound advice above. I also wonder to what extent the time of year might be against you. Busy run-up to the summer "flying season"? Where I am, I need to plan everything around 1) Float change-over season, and 2) Moose season. Long-range you might consider getting on a yearly schedule where the shop calendar has more slack.

Best of luck,

-DP

mtv wrote:If you can't trust a maintenance shop with your aircraft logs, why in heaven's name would you trust them to do proper inspections/repairs?

I think it depends on the situation. I've seen some shops with paperwork strewn everywhere and piled high on any flat surface, not somewhere I'd feel confident my binder wouldn't get lost. In the case of my current shop, they seemed well put together and had dedicated space for aircraft records. In any case, it's much easier for logs to get ruined or lost, than it is for an aircraft to be damaged while inside the hangar to the extent missing records would damage the value of an aircraft.

Appreciate all the advice, though. It seems to me the largest factor is just the amount of projects they have going on at once. Clearer expectations should've been communicated by both of us, so I learned something there.

I don't know what the seasonality is like in the Midwest for annuals, but I'd imagine anyone who prioritizes summer flying would be getting an early or late year annual. Mine has always been in the February time frame - I don't have skis, so I miss out on a lot of the winter fun anyway.

Thank you all for the thoughts! And not burning me at the stake, yet

A1Skinner wrote:As a mechanic, if you refuse to leave your logs with me to go through, especially the first time I'm seeing your plane, then I have no interest in doing your work. Also, I'm not sending a sticker with an electronic signature for you to put in your book. You bring the book, I put the sticker in and sign the book. But preferably, I've had the books all along so I can review them. There is just too much liability carried by the signature to not operate this way.

Seems like there's a lot of liability involved in sitting on owners' logs as well. If your house/shop burns down, suddenly your customers' aircraft values have been significantly affected. Does insurance cover that? Does it cover potential lawsuit(s)? Do you store them in a fireproof safe?

Logs are also a tool of potentially major leverage. If push comes to shove, it's like having a lien on someone's aircraft while you're in possession. And in a big shop, do they practice good chain of custody of logs? Does a guy take them home to read on the toilet to catch up on paperwork? I suppose a shop that loses logs won't be in business very long.

Also seems like I've known mechanics who are hot potato with having custody of the logs. Bring them in for the period of time to update/review then you take them away. Take your logs and get!

denalipilot wrote:

Mapleflt wrote:...the technical logs for my airplane live at the shop where it gets maintained, I only carry the J log.

First time hearing about J(ourney) logs- Google says it's a Canadian thing. Now I'm wondering if there's a US version that I've just never heard of?

To the OP- Some sound advice above. I also wonder to what extent the time of year might be against you. Busy run-up to the summer "flying season"? Where I am, I need to plan everything around 1) Float change-over season, and 2) Moose season. Long-range you might consider getting on a yearly schedule where the shop calendar has more slack.

Best of luck,

-DP

It considered to be poor practice and I seem to recall it might even be in contravention of the CAR's to carry all the logs with the airplane. If there is a hull loss then all records could be lost as well and hinder the subsequent TSB investigation.

eightfifty wrote:[…To PDF everything would be a lot of work but if I have no choice to continue going to larger shops then I'll just have to get it done I guess.

This rocks!
https://apps.apple.com/app/id377672876

Uses your phone camera to scan logs, super easy and fast, as is adding pages to existing PDFs

Plus if anything happens to my logs I can print the entire planes history and can access every 337, logbook page etc from my phone

Mapleflt wrote:[
If you only provide a PDF of the aircraft log books that you obviously control how does the signing A&P know the true status of your airplane. This would raise about a million flags for me if I was putting my name and license "on the line".

The relationship between an owner and the maintainer is built on mutual trust, withholding the log books doesn't foster this trust at all.

How do you know the paper logs are not all fake?


As a pilot flying a un airworthy plane after I faked the record is going to put my certificate at even more risk, and not trying to sound smug my career earnings potential is higher than that of a most APs.

Plus if something happened and you showed the FAA what you were given, you did the work based on that, and that was fake, that’s going to come back ln the person who provided you the BSed logs.

Just no credible reason to hand those over, and not something a big thinking and honest shop would even want to take responsibility for

mtv wrote:If you can't trust a maintenance shop with your aircraft logs, why in heaven's name would you trust them to do proper inspections/repairs?
….

I should play it the same way,

“Hey Mr AP, just as a sign of trust what’s your bank account login and password, ya know so I know I can trust you”

There’s no reason, none, for you to hand over that book in some halfcocked display of trust. I wouldn’t even deal with a shop dumb enough to play that card.

As a pilot and someone who managed planes, I don’t even want any info I don’t need, I don’t need the liability and responsibility for it. If I had a owner ask me to handle that and keep his logs I’d charge him a substantial monthly free and safety deposit costs to do it, why would anyone with above a room temp IQ ASK for that responsibility and liability??

Now, if you’re itching to lay hands on the paper of my original logs, shit worth about a quarter of my plane’s value, there’s no good reason to do it when PDFs get the job done.

I’ve heard too many horror stories: shops “misplacing” logs, holding ‘em hostage after pulling some unauthorized work, or worse.

Bigger outfits don’t even mess with that noise, the originals stay locked in the operator’s vault or some fortress where sticky fingers can’t wander.

If one of our many mechanics at work refused to do his job without seeing the full 0 time to now original logs, he’d probably get drug tested.

It’s just common sense, man. Anything less is a gamble I wouldn’t touch with a ten foot pole. Tons of good APs who don’t have a fetish to hold my paper logs

Mapleflt wrote: The only reason I can think of that someone might "object" to leaving the log books is if they don't intend to pay the bill, that's a HUGE red flag.......

I disagree.
As pointed out by others, logbooks can disappear.
Sometimes lost, sometimes taken.
Not real common, but I know of at least one case of lost logbooks,
one case of a mechanic dying & his family refusing to let anyone take their logbooks ("I'm not letting anyone take dad's stuff!"),
and one case of a shop employee stealing logbooks due to a personal dispute with the customer.
That last, the employee got fired but the logbooks remained missing.
In all cases, the airplane value took a hit that no one compensated the owner for.
The two mechanics I've used for work on my current airplane both have persued the logbooks for previous AD compliance, etc.
After the work / inspection is done, I bring them the logbooks & they do their thing with them, and I take the logbooks back home.
That's almost always the very last part of the job, and I generally bring my checkbook & pay the bill at that time.
Having the checkbook in hand also helps to motivate those mechanics who like to put off doing the paperwork.

Mapleflt wrote:

denalipilot wrote:

Mapleflt wrote:...the technical logs for my airplane live at the shop where it gets maintained, I only carry the J log.

First time hearing about J(ourney) logs- Google says it's a Canadian thing. Now I'm wondering if there's a US version that I've just never heard of?

To the OP- Some sound advice above. I also wonder to what extent the time of year might be against you. Busy run-up to the summer "flying season"? Where I am, I need to plan everything around 1) Float change-over season, and 2) Moose season. Long-range you might consider getting on a yearly schedule where the shop calendar has more slack.

Best of luck,

-DP

It considered to be poor practice and I seem to recall it might even be in contravention of the CAR's to carry all the logs with the airplane. If there is a hull loss then all records could be lost as well and hinder the subsequent TSB investigation.

There used to be an old CARS reference to this, but its been gone for a number f years now, so nothing illegal about it. But I'd agree that its poor practice.
DP, ya in Canada our logs are a bit different. We have the journey log that stays in the aircraft and every flight gets written in it. Then we have out technical records, one for the airframe that should closely mirror the journey log, the engine log with all the engine info and times, prop log with the prop info and times, and an AD log that we log all AD compliance in. When I do work, there is usually 4 stickers, one for each log, and a 5th entry in the AD log if required.

Zzz wrote:

A1Skinner wrote:As a mechanic, if you refuse to leave your logs with me to go through, especially the first time I'm seeing your plane, then I have no interest in doing your work. Also, I'm not sending a sticker with an electronic signature for you to put in your book. You bring the book, I put the sticker in and sign the book. But preferably, I've had the books all along so I can review them. There is just too much liability carried by the signature to not operate this way.

Seems like there's a lot of liability involved in sitting on owners' logs as well. If your house/shop burns down, suddenly your customers' aircraft values have been significantly affected. Does insurance cover that? Does it cover potential lawsuit(s)? Do you store them in a fireproof safe?

Logs are also a tool of potentially major leverage. If push comes to shove, it's like having a lien on someone's aircraft while you're in possession. And in a big shop, do they practice good chain of custody of logs? Does a guy take them home to read on the toilet to catch up on paperwork? I suppose a shop that loses logs won't be in business very long.

Also seems like I've known mechanics who are hot potato with having custody of the logs. Bring them in for the period of time to update/review then you take them away. Take your logs and get!

Ya, there is some liability there for sure. But yes, insurance does cover me for storing the customer tech records. I store almost all of my customers logs. They appreciate it, and they really don't need anything out of them unless they are planning to sell or something, they only need the Journey log throughout the year. I've had a couple customers, and heard of a few more that lost their logs when a vehicle got stolen with the logs inside. Auto insurance doesn't like to cover the value of the lost logs...