Littlecub
I do remember a recent election where the big county on the wet side did have over a 100% voter turn out, and she won the seat as Gov!!
GT

Wow, better than 100% turnout!!

Littlecub wrote:Bingo, Mike....
Washington State is divided by the Crashcade (aeronautically speaking)mountains into a very Wet west side and very DRY eastern ~half returning to 'damp' on the east edge.......

Bill, that was meant as a compliment, you don't need to hunt me down!.......


lc

I lived in and around Walla Walla when I was growing up. ,compared to the west "WET" coast it was DRY.

lancef53 wrote:Wow, better than 100% turnout!!

Yeah, that should give ya a pretty good idea of how honest the election was! (can you tell I voted for the other guy?)

This is a interesting one that a plane will not fly with a engine attatched! I bought this 172 after the mid air, insurance bid buyout. It had no engine, a slice in the left boot cowl from the prop hit plus left wing strut almost cut in half, otherwise fuselage was in good shape other than the brown streaks on pilot & co-pilot seats!. I had it rebuilt ,float kit, LR fuel, 180hp pen yan conversion, new floats, it resides MN on floats now.

NTSB Identification: FTW90FA151A.
The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number 44583.
Accident occurred Tuesday, August 07, 1990 in ELMENDORF, TX
Probable Cause Approval Date: 5/3/1993
Aircraft: CESSNA 172M, registration: N1466V
Injuries: 1 Minor, 3 Uninjured.
A USAF T-38 & A CESSNA 172 COLLIDED AT 4200' MSL. DRG IMPACT, THE VERTICAL STABILIZER OF THE T-38 STRUCK THE RGT SIDE OF THE 172'S ENG. THE ENG SEPD & THE 172 PLTS LNDD ON A ROAD. THE T-38 DSCNDD OUT OF CTL, BUT THE T-38 PLTS EJECTED SAFELY. BFR IMPACT, THE STUDENT IN THE 172 (WITH A VISION RESTRICTING DEVICE) & HIS INSTRUCTOR (CFI) WERE PRACTICING AIR WORK MNVRS. THE TANDEM SEAT T-38A (WITH AN INSTRUCTOR PLT IN THE BACK SEAT & A RATED PLT IN THE FNT SEAT) WERE BEING VECTORED FOR AN ILS RWY 33 APCH TO KELLY AFB. THE T-38'S SPD WAS ABOUT 330 KTS; THE SPD LIMITATION OF 250 KTS HAD BEEN WAIVED FOR T-38 ACFT, DUE TO THE ACFT'S LACK OF CONTROLLABILITY AT THE LOWER SPD. THE 172 WAS EQUIPPED WITH A TRANSPONDER, BUT IT WAS NOT EQUIPPED WITH MODE C. THE T-38 WAS EQUIPPED WITH A MODE C TRANSPONDER. BOTH ACFT WERE IN RADIO CTC WITH THE SAN ANTONIO SOUTH DEP CTLR, BUT ABT 3 MIN BFR THE COLLISION, RADAR SVC WITH THE 172 HAD BEEN TRMTD.

s:

STOLdriver-
Walla Walla is now a very premium wine grape growing and winery touring area. The Yakima river valley, Walla Walla valley and the mid-Columbia are all making quite 'splash' in the winery/wine tasting world. There are private jets that fly in to WW bringing jet setters and restaurateurs to select fine wines.

Don't take my word for it:

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/40317212/ ... -foodwine/

lc

Back on topic:
From what I am hearing here, more pilots have evidently survived the potentially catastrophic loss of their engine and its mass than I realized. I would guess the ratio is not favorable, and very dependent on airspeed when it happens, but it is not an apparently huge exception when it does happen (like I thought). Slightly comforting? I'll take what I can get......

lc

dirtstrip wrote:I haven't done it but hunting alone one time my step dad took a chunk out of one end of the prop on his PA 18 with a shot gun. Walked to the nearest farm and hacksawed the ends off as close as could be done in the field and flew it back home. Definitely out of balance but never had anything show up from it later.

An old crop duster buddy of mine had this happen back in the 60's when doing coyote work out of a j-3. Gunner got a little "tunnel visioned" on the dog, took the end of a blade off. He got it on the ground pronto, chase truck showed up and a saw shortly after. He got it back to the field.

nefj40 wrote:

dirtstrip wrote:quote]

An old crop duster buddy of mine had this happen back in the 60's when doing coyote work out of a j-3. Gunner got a little "tunnel visioned" on the dog, took the end of a blade off. He got it on the ground pronto, chase truck showed up and a saw shortly after. He got it back to the field.

In the interest of safety, how 'bout a drum fed 12 ga on each wing strut, fired by solinoid and "zeroed" at 50 to 60 yards. Ring sight on the cowl should do it. Ground support, anti-coyote weapon, no shotgunned struts or props, no back seat gunner required.

Bumper,

Actually, it's been done, but with wolves and brown bears in mind. I knew a fellow who had a BAR, then an M-14 mounted above the skylight of a Super Cub, with a sliding hatch in the skylight. He hunted Brown Bears on Kodiak with it for a couple years, till Outdoor Life published an article, and public opinion put an end to it. Rather famously, a ADF&G biologist mounted an AR-15 on the wing struts of a Cub in pursuit of wolves. Don't think he ever got to actually try it....
Brian,

Note that I didn't suggest that EVERY engine departure is fatal, but I guarantee if you study the records carefully, you'll find that many of them are. I don't like those odds, my own self.

I have short lineage information that empty 12ga. shells have brought down a cub (or more) by chance wedging & blocking the stick excursion necessary to avoid rapidly rising terrain. I understand this was confirmed by the marks on the shell made by the airplane's rather forceful impact with mother earth while being squeezed emphatically by the pilot pressure on the stick.

So if you are going to try this at home, fellas, mount a bag over the shell ejection port of the gun. Also besides props, as mentioned, struts have been shot and sectioned.....That is not pretty either.

I would pick my backseater so carefully that no one could qualify.......

lc

That's why I think that a helicopter is better for hunting uses.

This talk reminds me of the scene in one of the Indiana Jones movies where his back-seater (his dad) machine-guns the tailfeathers off the WW1 fighter they're trying to escape the bad guys in.

I am still always amazed at WW2 photographs showing aircraft that returned despite damage.

Especially some of the bombers with props shot away, and great big picture windows opened up all over the plane.

MTV - I agree 100% with you and that 172 midair was stoke of pure luck - bad & good, better to be lucky than good sometimes!

nealkas wrote:I am still always amazed at WW2 photographs showing aircraft that returned despite damage.

Especially some of the bombers with props shot away, and great big picture windows opened up all over the plane.

Reminds me of this website. The ol' Boeing saved many men.

http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/contents.htm

Heres pictures of the Luscombe that lost one propeller blade in Eastern Washington in 1949.


Here's a link to an account of the event posted on the matronics Kitfox list by the Pilot's nephew with more pictures.
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... llor+blade
A couple weeks ago, the current thread of interest was propeller failure. I had
recalled the story of what I thought was a wood prop failure on nearly new aircraft owned my uncle Victor R Franz with a mailing address of Ritzville WA but actually residing on a farm in the Warden Lind area very close to Shrag WA which has a railroad siding and wheat elevators about half a mile from what is now I-90, but on the track of former US-10. The photos and memory of this significant event are still vivid in my mind even though this even occurred when I was not quite 4 years old. I was just talking to Vic via e-mail and informed me that the prop that was replaced was not wood, but rather composite and the one that failed in flight was an all metal one.

Vic had this to say in particular: "The propeller was a Hartzell Snap-o-matic prop with metal blades. The original blade used on this type prop were composite. I was surpised when the prop showed up with metal blades. This heavier metal blades probably contributed to the hub failure. The Whole propeller hangs on the wall in the farm shop."

Vic and his wife have been active members of Washington Flying farmers for about 60 years now and the following is an account of this accident that happened about 10 miles or so from where I grew up on a farm in Othello WA. "Al" is mentioned in the article. That is my father. I have attached two composite photos, each with 4 scans on them. They are pretty big so if you have a modem connection you might act accordingly.

MEMORIES STILL VIVID AFTER FIFTY YEARS!

by Vic and Phyllis Franz, Washington Flying Farmers

Even after fifty years, Vic Franz and his cousin Earl Franz are not likely to forget what happened to them on October 16, 1949. For them, the memories of what transpired that day during their flight in Eastern Washington are as vivid as if they happened yesterday.

The Sunday was one of those cloudless bright autumn days just perfect for flying. After attending the morning worship service, Vic and Earl made plans to enjoy an afternoon flight. Vic, a pilot with 532 hours, was anxious to show Earl what his plane, a 1948 Luscombe Sedan, Model 11A, could do with its new propeller that had been installed just two months earlier. Flying was Vic's passion and this was the fourth airplane he had owned since he began to learn to fly at the Lind airport. His check ride for his private pilot's license had been given to him by Opal Hicks three years earlier in November, 1946.

Vic had purchased his new Luscombe, paying $6,995 for it, in August, 1948. About a year later, in a quest for more speed, he had the Hartzell Snap-O-Matic prop with metal blades installed on the four passenger plane at Wallace Aviation in Spokane. The day the installation was checked out and approved, it was not necessary that every Civil Aeronautics Administration inspector in the Spokane office fly in the plane, but they did out of curiosity and interest.

Vic took off from his farm strip west of Ritzville and quickly made the short flight into the Ruff area where his cousin lived. After Vic landed in the wheat stubble field near Earl's home, Earl hopped in and off they flew south to the picturesque but rugged scab rock country northwest of Othello.

Soon they were over the farm strip of John Para, a fellow Flying Farmer friend of Vic's. Vic "buzzed" the strip and pulled up in a steep climb. After leveling off at around 800 feet, Vic shifted the propeller into high pitch....and suddenly there was a violent vibration and for a moment it seemed as if the plane was hanging in mid-air...then silence. Vic had no way of knowing exactly what had happened, but he was sure the plane's whole engine had been torn away.

Ironically, earlier, Vic and Earl had discussed what Earl should do if they had an engine failure. Vic had told Earl he should climb into the back seat to protect himself. With this is mind, Vic started to tell Earl to climb into the back and then immediately, Vic changed his mind and told Earl to remain in his front seat to help stabilize the plane.

With his mind racing, Vic thought about a family that had recently died in an airplane accident in the Ritzville area. Vic was sure that he and Earl were going to die also and yet he wasn't afraid of dying. Earl also had the same feeling, he was not afraid of the thought of death but he was terrified at the thought of a plane crash!

Not panicking, Vic automatically put his piloting skills and knowledge of flight to use and put the control wheel all the way forward. The plane handled well with not much forward speed but enough to maintain flight. Vic did not have much control over his choice of where to land and made some quick decisions in the two or three minutes he had to guide the gliding plane own. With the plane headed directly into a bluff, Vic made a ninety degree turn and in the remaining few seconds, he realized the fence posts along the road where he was going to land were too high to pass under the wings
so he landed the plane in the adjacent field. As he was making the turn to land the tail went down even with full forward pressure on the controls and as a result Vic made the best three point landing he had ever made with that airplane.

Vic and Earl can not remember what they said to each other after they were safely on the ground. Surely, they each uttered their own prayer of thankfulness as they walked to the front of the Luscombe and found the whole engine gone!

A short time later, a young couple happened by on the country road and gave them a ride into Othello where Vic phoned his brother Walter to come pick them up. Sleep did not come easily that night, as the incidents of the accident flooded Vic's mind. He then remembered that he had been smoking a cigarette when the engine tore loose. Wondering what he had done with the lit Camel, he felt his fingers. They were blistered; automatically he had snuffed the cigarette out in his hand.

John Klettke, in his Stinson Station-Wagon, flew Vic over the terrain the next day and they located the engine in a rocky field about a mile from the location of the airplane. A few days later, Vic took an inspector from the Spokane CAA office to see the plane and engine. Later, personnel from the Seattle office also visited the accident sites. It is interesting to note that a CAA Airworthiness Directive on Hartzell Propellers was issued the next month, November 28, 1949!

Vic had to finish the fall seeding before he could get a truck and bring the plane back to the farm. With the help of his hired man, he removed the wings and loaded them and the engine on the truck and towed the plane home. Within a few weeks, he purchased a J3 Cub so he could get back into the air and also to use it as a spray plane. The next spring, Vic hauled the Luscombe to Spokane and traded it in on a metal wing Cessna 170A. It was a thrilling day when he took delivery of 9553A at the Cessna factory in Wichita, Kansas. About fours years later, after his brother Al had started farming in the Othello area, Al heard about a sheep herder that had found a piece of a prop. Sure enough, it was the blade that left the plane with the failed hub. The two pieces were reunited and now hang together in the farm shop.

After reading an article about the Luscombe Sedan in the January 1989 AOPA magazine and also one in the Private Pilot magazine, a lot of curiosity was sparked in Vic as to what had happened to Luscombe 1615B. He located it in the FAA Aircraft Registry and contacted the owner, Charles M. Bratton of Kaufman, Texas. Charles was delighted to hear from Vic, the original owner of his restored Luscombe. He said the plane's logbook recorded that the plane had had a new firewall installed but he did not know
the engine had been torn off. However, Charles had wondered about the dent on the front corner of the fuselage. Vic sent him a copy of the original Bill of Sale/Application of Registration of the Luscombe and Charles sent Vic a photo of the plane.

Later while traveling in Texas, Earl was able to visit Charles and see Luscombe 1615B. When Earl sat in the plane....the whole hallowing experience once again tumbled through his mind.

What happened to Vic and Earl that Sunday afternoon could have abruptly ended their young lives. But fortunately the story has a happy ending. Each young man got married, raised a family, were successful farmers and an asset to the community, and now is enjoying his grandchildren and retirement. Vic went on to fly another forty years, owning a total of twelve different airplanes. His interest in flying was passed on to his family with his wife, Phyllis, and two sons, Randy and Curt, all obtaining their pilot's licenses. Now his grandson, Peter, has soloed. Vic's love of flying took him on flights over much of Canada and the United States. He also flew into Mexico thirteen times and to Central America twice. Many of these trips were to take part in Flying Farmer conventions or tours. Vic was the 1984-1985 International Flying Farmer president.

Harry Blunt, a former Alaska bush pilot friend of Vic's, after hearing about the
incident told Vic that since he had survived this accident, he would always be safe while flying from then on. This proved to be true and Vic also has an unique flying story to share with other pilots.

- The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum -

Tyler wrote:That's why I think that a helicopter is better for hunting uses.

Not really. I've shot from both, and I'll tell you that the pilot of a helicopter does a LOT more gesticulating toward the ROTOR blades than a Cub pilot does toward the struts and prop during a new shooter's pre-flight breifing. Shooting a rotor blade may or may not result in a crash, but it's hard to explain to the NTSB. We had an excuse at least.

I've seen immobilizing darts shot throught the rotor disc--luckily with no damage. That shooter then became a mugger, not a shooter. I've seen a net gun hung on a landing gear toe. TINY little damage to some sheet metal from one of the weights, and MANY pounds of reports to explain it. I don't think the damage was actually ever fixed-cosmetic.

MTV

tcj,
Thanks for posting the story and photos. I was reluctant to toss out a name without Vic's approval, and I really didn't remember other details. Vic had passed the photos around and gave a very abbreviated version of what happened.

lc

Thanks for posting that tcj. Good story. That had to be quite the experience to revisit the accident plane many years later.