Yellowbelly wrote: I have a mental "death list". I physically touch each of the things that could kill me in the next 90 seconds or so: controls full movement and correct deflection, fuel selector, mixture, oil pressure gauge. Is it perfect? No. Am I perfect? No. The Maule fuel control is L/R/Both/Off.

Ditto here. If it will kill me I touch it. Everything else is just BS.

I pulled the Cherokee 6 out of the hangar after it got done with a 100hr inspection, fired it up, and taxied it out to the ramp for a runup before taxiing back for a leak check. It ran for almost 2 minutes before it quit. The mechanic left the fuel selector off and I wasn't going flying, so didn't bother looking. If I had ignored the checklist and took off, I'd have made it just far enough to land in the river at the end of the runway.

Anyhow...If you left that clothes pin on the throttle in the Cessna after shutting the fuel off, wouldn't it also remind you to turn it on when starting it back up

Are people doing a run up with the duel selector off? I can maybe imagine two minutes at low idle but if you throttle up she should die fairly soon.

But then if you are taking off without _any_ checklist does it surprise anyone that you can get surprised on short upwind?

born2flyak wrote:I pulled the Cherokee 6 out of the hangar after it got done with a 100hr inspection, fired it up, and taxied it out to the ramp for a runup before taxiing back for a leak check. It ran for almost 2 minutes before it quit. The mechanic left the fuel selector off and I wasn't going flying, so didn't bother looking. If I had ignored the checklist and took off, I'd have made it just far enough to land in the river at the end of the runway.

Anyhow...If you left that clothes pin on the throttle in the Cessna after shutting the fuel off, wouldn't it also remind you to turn it on when starting it back up

Yes, it would. But, that's assuming that you remember to install the clothespin upon shut down each and every time. So, what happens if you learn to rely on the clothespin as a reminder, and then one day you land, REALLY have to pee (I'm old, sue me), shut down in a hurry and forget to attach the clothespin...... So the question is, what have you really gained over a checklist, used consistently?

If it works for you, go for it. Anything we can use to improve the liklihood of success is a good thing, again, if use properly. Just don't turn it into a crutch.

MTV

OregonMaule wrote:

Yellowbelly wrote: I have a mental "death list". I physically touch each of the things that could kill me in the next 90 seconds or so: controls full movement and correct deflection, fuel selector, mixture, oil pressure gauge. Is it perfect? No. Am I perfect? No. The Maule fuel control is L/R/Both/Off.

Ditto here. If it will kill me I touch it. Everything else is just BS.

Pretty much the same with me. The Fuel Selector valve was the one item I always fondled with constantly to make sure it was in the right spot. I usually never moved it from "Both".

shorton wrote:Nobody mentioned this demon so I will, I fly an old airplane, lots of us do, any carbureted engine in old planes uses the same old needle/float/seat system and these damn things will fail. If you don't turn off your fuel selector at some point you may find a big stain on the ground and no fuel or you may have the damdest fire you ever saw.

You fly your way and I'll fly mine but I try to always shut off the fuel selector, I write down the time on each tank (fifty yrear old gauges) and take off or land on the fullest one. My plane does not have a both but I don't think I would use it if it did.

.

Or in my case the gascolator quick drain. Drip, drip.

I'm sure most of your aircraft have checklists. The checklist is generated by the manufacturer (normally) to address issues and requirements of your specific aircraft. If your checklist for shutdown list fuel OFF, then that is their accepted good position for it. Complying with the checklist is conforming to known accepted procedures. Should your aircraft torch itself on the ground or in your hanger and the selector is in the on position, your insurance company now has a reason not to pay you. You didn't comply with accepted procedures.

Now the ugly part. I have had two buddies die due to fuel theft. In many aircraft, the only way to be sure how much fuel you have in an aircraft is how much you pumped in. The gauges indicate something from, perhaps, a parallel universe. If you fail to shut off the fuel, you can drain as much as you want through the low point drain. So, my buds thinking they had 'X' fuel in the DC-6 had X-Y and ran out of fuel and died in the mountains. In Africa, you had to be very wary of fuel vampires and ensure your fuel is off, or by the morning you had supplied the entire village with kerosene to cook with. We have had several incidents of fuel thieves on the ramp in Georgia. Stealing from both the aircraft on the line and the trucks. In some aircraft, like my old Birddog with a pressure carburetor, did you want the super expensive diaphragms failing from leaving the fuel on?

So do what is the proper procedures for your aircraft, not some other model. Smarter folks than us have determined the proper position of the shut off on shut down and parking. If your engine quits from not having it on, then your not necessarily stupid, but perhaps dead. So do the checklist, even if your in a hurry, unless your in a hurry to fill out admissions forms to heaven.

AKclimber wrote:So this begets a question - if all your fuel transfered to the low wing while parked on a slope and you took off with fuel selector on both, would the tanks equalize again by themselves in flight?

Yes, it will eventually balance, also It is not uncommon if running on both tanks and use more fuel from one tank than the other, if your running on both, at least on my 67 172 you can influence which tank it draws the most by switching to the fullest tank several minutes and switching back to both again, it seems that once the fuel starts flowing from either tank it has a tendency to continue to do so.

Dogpilot....as to fuel thieves, you're talking airplanes that have a lockable door, of course..... Mine don't lock, and even if they did, all you'd have to do is rock the wings a bit to pop a door open.

I agree on following the manufacturer's recommendations....to a point. For example, consider Piper's recommendation in their checklist for the Piper Warrior III in engine starting: Turn master on, mixture full rich, turn beacon on, turn ignition switch to "start". Crank for ten seconds, if engine has not started, PRIME the engine 2 seconds, then re-engage the starter.

Whoever in Piper ever thought up that checklist apparently hasn't ever actually started one of these things. My point is, manufacturer's checklists are not necessarily sacrosanct, and most of the manufacturers of GA airplanes will tell you that. GENERALLY speaking, they provide good recommendations. I always try to understand WHY they recommend something, and as you say, there are often VERY good reasons to follow their guidance.

You need to train those locals better. I parked airplanes on the ramps of some not so friendly ALaska villages, and I know of only one case where someone screwed with an airplane. And, in that case, the VPSO brought the perpetrators to me within an hour. I'm sure it's happened more times than that, but up there, everything these folks consume comes via the airplane. Messing with airplanes is a quick way to "interrupt" your air service. No booze or cigarettes for a month changes behavior significantly. Other parts of the world, maybe not.

MTV

MTV,

Never had a single problem in Alaska with the planes. There was a certain amount of respect there. However, if your talking your average crack addict,they think no more than 20 minutes in the future, centering around their own navel. Consequences to others is of no bearing in their outlook to the world. In Africa and Honduras (the DC-6), many of those folks are so unfortunately illiterate, they have no concept that the aircraft needs the fuel. They think it makes it all by itself.

Some checklist are rather dated, again the difference between the Birddog's military checklist (about 30 pages) and its civilian counterpart (one page) is dramatic. I just settled, last week, a huge lawsuit on one of my PT6A-114 engines, very high 6 figures. Details about ACCEPTED procedures where paramount, regardless of common sense.

More to the point, if you need a clothespin for the fuel shutoff, then use it as an additional personal reminder to the checklist, then do it. Same reason to have two radios in your airplane, additional safety.

To turn fuel off or not.....probably lots of variables with make and model, here is what I figured out today with a 59 Cessna 181.
The fuel was left on from the last flight...
Pushed it out of the hangar and turned the fuel off, primed 3 times and hit the starter with one pump of the throttle and one more prime, it fired and ran at idle for 41 seconds at 700 rpm.
Tried it again at 1000 rpm and it ran for 30 seconds.
The last time was at run up (1700 rpm) and it ran for 16 seconds.
With all three tests the engine ran rough before it died letting you know something was wrong, more so with low rpm settings.
In this plane (the way most all of us care for our engines) I cannot imagine getting in the air with the fuel shut off.

Terry wrote:To turn fuel off or not.....probably lots of variables with make and model, here is what I figured out today with a 59 Cessna 181.
The fuel was left on from the last flight...
Pushed it out of the hangar and turned the fuel off, primed 3 times and hit the starter with one pump of the throttle and one more prime, it fired and ran at idle for 41 seconds at 700 rpm.
Tried it again at 1000 rpm and it ran for 30 seconds.
The last time was at run up (1700 rpm) and it ran for 16 seconds.
With all three tests the engine ran rough before it died letting you know something was wrong, more so with low rpm settings.
In this plane (the way most all of us care for our engines) I cannot imagine getting in the air with the fuel shut off.

I'm with you Terry.

Just got to thinking about the primer on the step dad's PA-18 L4. If the fuel is off and you try to prime, the pump will vacuum lock on the pull stroke as it struggles to pull in fuel. It gives you a clue.

It was a while back, time might have seemed to drag on, but that Cherokee 6 ran long enough to fire up, taxi away, and idle in the middle of the ramp for a while at 1000 rpm. I was waiting for it to warm up before doing the runup of course, so it was at idle the whole time. Anyhow, as others have said, if it reminds you and it works, do it. I've learned from all my mistakes the easy way so far, and I remember every one of them on every flight I make. It's on the back of my mind each time I push the throttle in and commit to a take-off. I myself never turn the fuel selector off unless emergency procedures and common sense suggest it.

I don't think it matters a lot if you turn the fuel off or not at shut-down-- I do, but that's just me. The mportant thing is to turn it/check it "ON" from your checklist when starting up, whether or not you ever turned it off to begin with. I wouldn't think a clothespin or other reminder is necesary, on the fuel selector or the mag switch, carb heat, trim(s), etc. The main thing is to follow the checklist.
Not to say that's foolproof, at least to a sufficiently determined fool. I have took off on one mag, also with the carb heat on- both times due to letting myself get distracted during the engine run-up. I have yet to take off with a fuel selector, trim, or control lock issue-- mainly because I run the whole start-up/before flight checklist (except for runup) before taxiiing.

Terry wrote:To turn fuel off or not.....probably lots of variables with make and model, here is what I figured out today with a 59 Cessna 181.
The fuel was left on from the last flight...
Pushed it out of the hangar and turned the fuel off, primed 3 times and hit the starter with one pump of the throttle and one more prime, it fired and ran at idle for 41 seconds at 700 rpm.
Tried it again at 1000 rpm and it ran for 30 seconds.
The last time was at run up (1700 rpm) and it ran for 16 seconds.
With all three tests the engine ran rough before it died letting you know something was wrong, more so with low rpm settings.
In this plane (the way most all of us care for our engines) I cannot imagine getting in the air with the fuel shut off.

Some Cessnas have header tanks, others don't. Again, knowing your aircraft's system is essential to safety.

MTV

I have butted heads with Mike (MTV) in the past on this forum, but my strong inclination to call a spade a spade dictates I express appreciation to Mike for his sharing of his knowledge/experience/wisdom that has been born of his experience.
Both elsewhere on here (BCP) and/but particularly on this thread his contribution has been (IMO) VERY worthwhile.

Thank you, Mike.
lc

Don't take this as a change in relationship.....
We WILL butt heads again in the future....