I think the seriousness of fuel starvation is a given. No need to hash and rehash that topic. We're all on the same page about dying and losing friends, so no need to talk for the sake of talking. I split this thread because of the gem about preventing crossfeed, and the opinion that there is really no need to turn the fuel OFF. It has more cons that it does pros.

Back to happy time.

[quote]Cessna installed an interlock in the starter system I believe in the Caravan to prevent starts with the fuel turned off.
/quote]

The Caravan will still start with the fuel selectors off, but you would have to ignore the horns.

Cessna did retrofit the Caravan with the warning horns if the starter engages It is actually a rather poorly thought out system quickly implemented as a result of a lawsuit. A caravan can start, taxi out and takeoff and climb to around 400' before the collector tank runs dry. The horns also go off in turbulent air if you have one selector off, or start with one in the off position. Unfortunately you have to leave at least one off, or within an hour it will be leaning to one side with fuel running out the vent.

Personally, if you can remember a clothespin, you can do a checklist.

Yes I am old school. I have a pocket checklist for my 185, the POH an electronic version on my Garmin 796, the Garmin 650 and on my iPad. I even did my landing checklist when I dead sticked the Caravan into Gallup last month. Who knows I may have overlooked something that may kill me deader than the already dead engine.

Agreed to all. The point is, we all need to understand our aircraft's systems, especially any potential gotchas.

We are all humans, and therefore we all have the ability to screw up. Use whatever tools that work for you to avoid disaster. Engine failure at low level right after takeoff is a VERY difficult emergency to survive, and things have to be done just right. Even so, it may not be survivable.

Again, use whatever tool that works for you. But understand those systems well for any airplane you fly, especially the fuel system.

MTV

My C150/150 has a simple on/off fuel selector, which I like, except that it will crossfeed in either position.
I don't get the whole clothespin thing....isn't "fuel on" (to correct tank when applicable) part of every checklist? If you do the checklist every time, you don't need the clothespins. What if you depend on the clothespin to jog your memory but forget to put it on in the first place? Maybe put a rubberband on your wrist to remind you?
I'm just sticking to a checklist-- even the old standby CIGARS & GUMPS are better than clothespins.

I agree with the R or L to stop cross feeding on my early 180. Also, I know a for sure way to never forget the fuel is shut off----drain the gascolator until it stops running after switching to OFF. I give my plane 3 shots of prime when cold and 1 shot if it has been parked for over an hour to not have to crank much. It takes many strokes of the primer to get it primed again and squirting fuel after the gascolator has been drained.

Note:

An 8GCBC will crossfeed even with the fuel shutoff. Very dangerous!

I never touched the fuel selector in my antique Cessna because rumor had it was like a $5,000 part and I didn't want to risk springing a leak.

8GCBC wrote:Note:

An 8GCBC will crossfeed even with the fuel shutoff. Very dangerous!

7GCBC also will x-feed, almost bit me this summer. I was at a cabin in Canada & on floats,I topped one side & had to run back to the store to refill my cans. When I got back I filled the left wing & it took less than I expected. Checking my gauges about 2 hours into the return trip I saw less than I expected. After some thinking I realized my error, while gone to get more gas the tanks equalized & I was about 7 -10 gallons short of being totally topped. I made a stop & got more fuel. I would have made it fine, but within my reserve. lesson learned the easy way that time.

Early 185's will also transfer, no selector, just on/off. On floats this sucks cuz the heavy wing gets more fuel & gets heavier & fills more until it pisses into the lake!

I wish I wouldn't make mistakes, but I do, and I will. My own experience which keeps me from shutting the fuel off now was with our 182 some 35 years ago. I had shut it off because we had it parked on quite a slope at a little strip (2000') in Ohio. When it came time to leave, I did a complete preflight including turning on the fuel selector, and then loaded the family. I then went into the FBO to file my IFR flight plan and was given a short clearance void time. But when I went back to the airplane, Wife 1 had unloaded the kids to go potty one last time. So I shut off the fuel selector while waiting for the family, since it had started draining out the vent--fuel was cheaper then, but not that cheap! By the time the family was reloaded, I was very concerned that the clearance void time would run out, so I quickly cranked up and we taxied out. We back-taxied on the strip, pulled off to do the runup, and then pulled out onto the strip to take off. I pushed the throttle in, we began the take off roll, and suddenly the engine died. I knew immediately what had happened--in my haste, I'd forgotten that I'd turned the selector off after turning it on during the preflight. By then, we'd eaten up too much runway to start the takeoff roll from there, so I turned around and back taxied again to the end of the strip.

But as a result of that event, I don't think I've ever turned the fuel selector to off in any airplane since--to right or left, yes, but not to off.

Whether that makes me a "brainiac" or not, I don't know. But I know that I'm not infallible, with or without a checklist item, clothes pin, sticky note, or whatever. If something can keep my mistakes from killing me, I'm all for using that something.

Cary

Let me take another run at this, and better explain my earlier critiques......

For many decades, in fact, probably since the Wright Brothers were at the zenith, pilots have rationalized airplane accidents by saying "He was stupid" or words to that effect. While in fact that may have been true, the implication is that, "while THAT pilot was stupid, I'm not". Hence my point that we are all human, and as humans, we CAN and WILL screw up. Very often, those screw ups are minor and the consequences amount to nothing or nearly so. Sometimes those screw ups have the potential for real disaster, but we luck out, as just described by Cary. Hence the term "There but for the Grace of God go I".

Cessna built in a pilot trap when they designed the Caravan fuel system. There are other traps out there, but any GOOD manufacturer will TRY to design those things out of an aircraft at its inception, and at the very least, FIX the problem after it manifests itself. Cessna did that with it's modification of the fuel system. I'm not criticizing Cessna on the original design.....sometimes it's hard to predict how people will use a particular tool or system. But, Cessna did recognize the issue and developed a fix. I don't know if they've had one of these type accidents since, but if so, it's certainly an isolated incident.

But again, my point, both regarding Rob's post and OM's John Wayne post is that those kinds of response in my opinion (and we all know about opinions, right?) are classic pilot reactions, and suggest that THAT pilot is not stupid. And, you may not be. There's no question that pilots can be stupid. There's also no question that, so far at least, most airplanes still have pilots, and they're human.

The "He was stupid" thing is often a rationalization to reduce the perceived risk of flying. I'm better than that, therefore I won't ever get into a similar accident. Yet we do as a population. And, yes, there are stupid pilots all over. I've been there a time or two that I can recall.

So, I intended no offense to either of the folks I "attacked" in my earlier post. That said, none of us are perfect.

Hence my comment about REDUCING the likelihood of a fuel exhaustion accident right after takeoff. By not turning the fuel valve OFF as a general practice, we can perhaps REDUCE the likelihood that this will happen to one of us. That's what accident analysis is supposed to provide, after all. But, to simply say "He was stupid" doesn't really help us learn and therefore avoid similar occurrences.

I wasn't intending to come across as hyper sensitive regarding the individuals I mentioned...they weren't close friends, they were acquaintences, but my point was that these were very experienced and well trained professional pilots. They made mistakes and one of the lessons we should take away from these tragic accidents is that we are none of us immune from making mistakes.

I have no issue with recognizing that a pilot made a mistake, but to just say that an accident was caused by a stupid pilot doesn't help us learn as much as could be learned from that accident.

I hope I've obfuscated this sufficiently that everyone is confused, but again, I meant no offense to the Robs....

Finally, Zane, no need to worry about breaking that fuel selector....if your mechanic is doing his or her job, they're turning that selector off and verifying it's function at each annual inspection.

MTV

I got a hand prop airplane. I start it with the fuel turned off. That gives me just enough time to get back to the cockpit and turn it on after a successful start. I have forgotten to turn it on once. The engine quit before I could untie the tail and get the belts on. Maybe understanding the systems of your airplane is a good start. They are not all the same obviously.

A story on those lines; I had an old friend many years ago that was called back from Europe during WWII to serve as an instructor pilot in Southern California for the P-38 program. This of course is a single seater. When he arrived they handed him a two foot tall stack of technical orders and told him to take one of the airplanes on the line when he felt satisfied. No briefing by test pilots. Nothing. They felt that the systems education alone would be safe enough. He never made a comment as to how expendable he was. This was in the days before the counter rotating props too.

EB

I have had conversations with other Tundra owners about the fuel selector sent with the kit. There is no crossover line between tanks like in some Cessnas and it also does not have a "Both" position that would allow fuel to make the crossover if left in that position. You can only select Left or Right or Off. For nearly 45 years I have always turned the fuel off in every plane at shutdown, I was taught to do that but never questioned why. Since flying homebuilts (1980) I use my own memorized checklist at start up while I hand touch each control or switch as I run through the list. Now I want to change my procedure from leaving it Off and instead use either Right or Left after reading this thread. I agree it is a safer position. There is just this complication of overcoming a change in my routine once something has become a mindset. Since my "default" position is "Off" I will have to be careful now in assuming it to be always on. Like still reaching for the light switch when you know the electricity has been off the whole day.
I will have to pay attention to the possibility that I could unintentionally return it to Off at shutdown for a while till I get used to this change. Got a spare clothes pin?

Next time you go flying turn your fuel off before you fire up and see how far you get. I doubt in my C181 I would make the run up area? I'll try it next time.

Nobody mentioned this demon so I will, I fly an old airplane, lots of us do, any carbureted engine in old planes uses the same old needle/float/seat system and these damn things will fail. If you don't turn off your fuel selector at some point you may find a big stain on the ground and no fuel or you may have the damdest fire you ever saw.

You fly your way and I'll fly mine but I try to always shut off the fuel selector, I write down the time on each tank (fifty yrear old gauges) and take off or land on the fullest one. My plane does not have a both but I don't think I would use it if it did.

Pilots are supposed to be in control of the plane, anything that is automated causes lack of pilot control, everything that happens from the time you untie till you walk away is YOUR fault, no excuses. I have had fuelers leave the caps off, my fault, they have put them on backwards, my fault. I have left the selector off, my fault. get the drift here. Either you do or you check it no exceptions.

And please be nice to each other.

shorton wrote:Nobody mentioned this demon so I will, I fly an old airplane, lots of us do, any carbureted engine in old planes uses the same old needle/float/seat system and these damn things will fail. If you don't turn off your fuel selector at some point you may find a big stain on the ground and no fuel or you may have the damdest fire you ever saw.

You fly your way and I'll fly mine but I try to always shut off the fuel selector, I write down the time on each tank (fifty yrear old gauges) and take off or land on the fullest one. My plane does not have a both but I don't think I would use it if it did.

Pilots are supposed to be in control of the plane, anything that is automated causes lack of pilot control, everything that happens from the time you untie till you walk away is YOUR fault, no excuses. I have had fuelers leave the caps off, my fault, they have put them on backwards, my fault. I have left the selector off, my fault. get the drift here. Either you do or you check it no exceptions.

And please be nice to each other.

If your carburetor is in that sad a shape I wouldn't want you fying over my house

Don't you have annuals done? Just because a piece of equipment is old doesn't mean it's necessarily junk.

Those little O-rings in your sump drains are a LOT more likely to fail than a well maintained carb.
But whatever winds your watch.

MTV

you mean the same o rings that are in the selector valve? and the same o-rings that are in the primer pump?

That was sort of my point, all things may fail, it is up to the PIC to check and verify that all is well at the time of use.

I am an A&P and have done and will do complete rebuilds of any and all of these components and I fly my own work with my family on board. I just have no illusions that everything will be just peachy just by thinking happy thoughts about it. I have seen seals and o-rings fail right out of the box, I have seen carb floats "water log" and drain out the whole tank, I have seen fuel lines that look just fine on the outside develop pin holes. None of this means that that particular machine did or did not have good maintenance, anything built by the hand of man may fail at any time.

I do my best to eliminate problems and try to be prepared to handle what comes up.
Have a nice day

Interesting. Would you be better off if that seat failed on the ground and dumped all your fuel out on the ground or in flight?

If that is indeed such a significant risk, I'd suggest not flying that airplane, though most airplanes do spend way more time on the ground than in the air. Nevertheless, if those seals fail that often, the NTSB record should be literally filled with accidents caused by such failures. It isn't.

But if turning your fuel selector off every time you park works for you, that's fine with me. Just remember to turn it back on every time prior to flight. And, hope that carb seat doesn't fail.

Aviation does involve risk. We can manage risk to some great degree, but some things we simply have to rely on good maintenance and good equipment to get us home.

MTV

As I wont be in a position to try it out until after this conversation is long forgotten....
How long can a fuel injected 6 cylinder aircraft engine (with no header tank) run with fuel selected to off?? I am thinking if you don't have a header, you'd be sucking a vacuum in no time. There's maybe 4-5ft of 3/8" line, with a gascolator and maybe a filter, then the two pumps, and that's all the fuel you've got - not to mention you can't suck that through once the vacuum gets too strong? And that would be even less with a carb (i.e. no pump).

P.s. I was going to add weight to the "assume nothing, always check anyway" argument, then I realised I've taken off before and realised afterwards that I forgot to check the selector... despite saying it out loud in every pre-takeoff checklist I do... so yeah, who am I to talk.

I have to agree with MTV: lots of those accidents didn't happen to idiots. My view on aircraft accidents? It's a minefield out there. My thanks go out to those guys who stepped on one that shows the rest of us where they are.

I use checklists, even have them programmed into the Garmin so I don't fumble for them during the runup. But, when I finish the runup and roll for the end of the runway, I have a mental "death list". I physically touch each of the things that could kill me in the next 90 seconds or so: controls full movement and correct deflection, fuel selector, flaps, trim, mixture, oil pressure gauge... This is where it gets serious, so each of them is NOT a cursory check...check...check... it's a full-blown examination of each item and it only takes seconds. My death list has been built on the shoulders of those good pilots who forgot something.

Is it perfect? No. Am I perfect? No. The Maule fuel control is L/R/Both/Off. If I am flying Lindbergh Legs and filling the outboard aux tanks, it's necessary to manipulate the feed to keep lateral trim. It's always nice to use up the outboard fuel as soon as possible so the plane doesn't end up flying like the hunchback of Notre Dame. The Maule also crossfeeds like crazy. My first long cross country was LONG, Key West to San Francisco. We were filling all the tanks all the time. Our last fill up was Porterville, CA and we flew out to the coast at Morro Bay. It was a spectacular day and we flew up the coast to San Francisco. I had in mind a symbolic arrival over the Golden Gate in my brand new airplane. North of Half Moon Bay, if you are close to the coastline, you have to be below 1500 ft to duck under departing traffic from SFO. To be safe, we were flying at 1000 ft +- The Golden Gate came into view and I banked right to pass over the center of the span and uttered the now famous words: "What a beautiful day!"... and the engine quit... I had been flying on one tank for most of the day and "forgot" to monitor my switching schedule. Fuel starvation over shark infested choppy waters... of course it all turned out all right or you wouldn't be reading this, but what an explosion of mental and physical activity! I had already picked out a grassy spot beyond the bridge that we probably could NEVER have made. I grabbed the fuel selector and moved it. By luck I didn't move it to "Off". I "selected" Both and the the engine responded immediately with the most wonderful surge of power I have ever felt before or since.

So, did this event forever prevent fuel mismanagement on my part? For a long time, yes. Then, one day I flew to a rather remote backwater to fill up with cheap gas. The pump said it took far more to fill my main tanks than I expected. I even sank to the level of assuming the pump was rigged to show more fuel delivered to maximize profit because, otherwise, I had arrived there with mere dribbles in my tank. Later I found that it was possible to pump fuel overboard by "forgetting" that the transfer pump was running and overfilling the main tank which ran out the fuel cap. Meanwhile, the highly accurate fuel totalizer was unaware of the overboard dump and was faithfully reporting what "should" be left. Another Note to Self: Trust but verify!

YB